Episode 04 - Authenticity in the Age of AI
- Shutter Nonsense
- Jul 1
- 43 min read
Updated: 4 days ago
Honesty, integrity, and the impact of AI on the creative process and nature photography
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Contents
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Episode Summary
Navigating the Intersection of Nature Photography and AI: A Quest for Authenticity and Integrity
In a rapidly evolving digital world dominated by AI and technological advancements, the art of nature photography stands at a crossroads. As photographers, we grapple with questions of authenticity, integrity, and the role of artificial intelligence in our craft. Join us as we explore these themes and discuss the implications of AI on photography and art.
The Role of AI in Modern Photography
Artificial Intelligence has made remarkable strides in photography, offering tools that enhance efficiency and provide unprecedented creative possibilities. From AI-powered cleanup tools in Lightroom to advanced image generation, the capabilities of AI continue to spark debate. As Michael points out, while these tools can optimize workflows and assist in maintaining artistic integrity, they also introduce ethical dilemmas regarding the authenticity of the artistic process.
Authenticity and Artistic Integrity
Both Michael and Jeffrey emphasize the importance of honesty and integrity in photography. For them, representing nature truthfully is paramount, balancing creative expression with faithful representation. Michael explains that while manipulation and editing are part of the artistic process, transparency about these techniques is essential to maintain trust with the audience.
The Impact on Nature Appreciation and Conservation
One significant concern raised in the episode is the potential desensitization of audiences to the true beauty of nature. As AI-generated images and heavily manipulated photographs proliferate, the authenticity of genuine nature experiences may diminish. This shift could alter public perception and reduce the perceived value of natural environments, potentially impacting conservation efforts.
Human Connection in the Age of AI
Beyond photography, the conversation delves into broader societal trends, questioning humanity's growing reliance on technology. Michael and Jeffrey highlight the importance of human connection and personal experience, warning against a future where AI replaces genuine interactions and experiences.
Conclusion: A Call for Honesty and Transparency
As we navigate the intersection of nature photography and AI, the call for honesty and transparency becomes increasingly crucial. While AI offers exciting opportunities for creativity and efficiency, maintaining artistic integrity ensures that the beauty of our natural world is represented truthfully.
We invite you to join the conversation on our Patreon page, where you can share your thoughts, critique our viewpoints, and explore the evolving landscape of photography in the age of AI.
Embracing AI responsibly can enrich our artistic endeavors, but don't let it overshadow the authenticity and integrity that define true nature photography. By fostering an honest dialogue about these issues, we contribute to a future where art, technology, and nature coexist harmoniously.
Full Transcript
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[00:00:00] Michael: In an era that's soon to be dominated by AI and digital art, what defines authenticity and photography? Join us for episode four of Shutter Nonsense as we delve into the intersection of technology, art, and truth. Where do you draw the line? After listening, head over to our Patreon. Join the discussion either as a free follower or paying member.
We'd love to hear your thoughts on this rapidly changing subject. And now here we go.
I think where all of this comes back to, whether it's Photoshop manipulation or AI, is the honesty and integrity piece of it.
There's really no reason to not be honest or forthright about it unless you're trying to misrepresent or mislead your audience.
[00:00:36] Jeffrey: Typing on their keyboard right now and ready to leave comments.
[00:00:49] Michael: In this one, we're gonna be talking about a, subject that's been and dear to my heart. And I know Jeffrey and I have talked about it a little bit and it's been a, uh, big topic in the world of photography and art in general. And that is authenticity and realism and honesty and integrity and all of those things in a world that is becoming ever more artificial, primarily with the advent of artificial intelligence Around image generation, video generation, which is advancing insanely rapidly, and all that good stuff.
But before we get into that, Jeffrey, what's, uh, how you doing? What you been up to? What's, uh, what's going on in your world? I know you've had a hectic week with work.
[00:01:21] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I'm doing good. Uh, definitely been a hectic week. Uh uh, uh. Surviving, surviving one day at a time, and we're getting through it. Uh, my biggest thing on my plate right now for, for me and my photography is I'm mainly, I really need to get through those Smoky Mountain images and at least get an initial calling done.
I need to do something with those, and that's what I'm hoping to do, uh, within the next few days, is to get an initial pass through those images and try to curate how, what, how I'm gonna release those, whether it just be a gallery on the website or an ebook release again. Uh, but that's, that's sort of what I have on my plate.
Didn't get a whole whole lot of photography stuff done recently, but that's, that's what I've got on my list. That's what I sort of wanna accomplish and, and get done in the next few days, is get through those images and figure out a good way to release them. So how about you?
What have you been up to?
[00:02:09] Michael: Oh, trying to think. I don't think I've touched my Smoky Mountains stuff in the last week. in the, um, brilliant ways that I approach my editing. I've actually gone back in time further, I. I think I mentioned it in a previous episode, but I've been working on for months, going into last year, I believe even the end of last year, I've been working on, uh, some archive images, primarily from Colorado and then the local park here in Texas.
So I decided, to circle back to the stuff from here in Texas at least, and try to wrap that up. I think I've got all the editing done. I've got the final selection made, and I'm kind of in the same boat as you, like. don't think I'm gonna do an ebook for this one, just because it's a little bit different spanning, I mean, it goes back to 2017, so it's not like it's tied to a recent trip or anything of that nature.
[00:02:52] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:02:53] Michael: so I'll probably just throw it up on the gallery. On my website and get it, uh, get it available or get the images available in the store for prints. But I've got that daunting task ahead of me is I think I've got 70, 73 or 76 images, which means I gotta write descriptions for every single one alt text for every single one. It's that
[00:03:11] Jeffrey: It's,
[00:03:11] Michael: of updating the website.
[00:03:12] Jeffrey: it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. I thought you ended up with a lot of images from that project, uh, where you went back through the archives.
[00:03:18] Michael: Yeah, and I feel like I called it down pretty well. There might be a couple more that as I take one final look, but honestly, I feel like, I keep reminding myself like, dude, this is going back eight years. So yeah, it might be a larger collection.
But
[00:03:32] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:03:32] Michael: stuff that I either I had somehow forgotten about over the years, or I've got a line in there where I had initially looked at the file and kind of passed it over. And then taking a fresh look at it. Late last year, you know, saw something that I didn't see before. Also got some that, uh, I've re-edited from like 20 17, 20 18 time range.
When I look at those edits, it's just like, oh my Lord, what was I doing?
[00:03:56] Jeffrey: I was gonna ask you that what you thought when you dig that far back, like your styles certainly changed, your editing capabilities changed, and how that felt like doing that deep dive, and whether you felt your captures were good and that you. Growth in editing and, and approach helped salvage some of those?
Or were they just, it'll just more match your current, current look. How, what was that like?
[00:04:19] Michael: so interestingly enough, and I would say most of the images are from 20 20, 20 21, and up until present day,
[00:04:28] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:28] Michael: as the spring, Yeah. But for the most part, I don't feel like my in field style has changed that much. Where I've definitely gotten better is just getting it right in camera.
I'm having to do more cropping than what I would do typically today and things like that. Um, getting into the older files, I would, you know, there's being added in this, this collection, just simply because I didn't have the skillset at the time to. Produce consistently good work. So there's a
[00:04:52] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:04:52] Michael: a lot of turds in those 20 17, 20 18 files.
I think 2017 I've got like two files. Um, 2018 is a little bit more, but yeah, most of them come from the last four or five
[00:05:05] Jeffrey: Last four or five.
[00:05:06] Michael: And then the editing, yeah, man, it's for the, of these were unedited, but for the ones, again, from that 20 17, 20 18 era when was all about, man, I don't know what I was doing.
Like I, I. It was kind of the trend at the time, like
[00:05:22] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:23] Michael: and you know, and really cool shadows and adding in light and shadow that wasn't necessarily there or way over emphasizing it. really loved clarity apparently, especially in 2017, that more than I than I remembered liking. Um
[00:05:36] Jeffrey: Which is sort of funny now. 'cause isn't one of your normalist things for Woodlands is to knock the clarity down a little bit these days compared to that. Yeah.
[00:05:44] Michael: yeah. It's been, um, there were definitely some, some cringe-worthy edits in there that I happily reset and we'll never go back and look at again. So I've been working
[00:05:53] Jeffrey: Awesome.
[00:05:53] Michael: Um,
still haven't gotten the box sets. actually I went back and looked at previous orders and I must have been hallucinating that they used to come, like in a week.
Uh, that has not been the case, so I've probably got another week or so. I know they're in production now. So looking forward to getting those in. I finally. can see back over my left shoulder, I finally ran off my first print, For those of you on video, you get a sneak peek, although by the time this goes live, they'll be out on uh, my website for pre-orders. there's my 12 images and I'm
[00:06:23] Jeffrey: Nice.
[00:06:24] Michael: in the box set, away with the actual paper folio or thin folio that I used before. And switching to a, a box set, which lets me expand the number a little bit. So finally, finally got round to that. then last night, because I need to add all these new images to the website. And because, New Mexico fine Art did away with their canvas prints, which I really love working with them, so I wanna stay with them. I don't really want to use a different lab, so I've gotta update all of my existing print listings on my website to remove the canvas.
Decided I'm going to, I. Replace canvas with metal, and then long overdue, I haven't updated my pricing on prints in a year and a half, coming up on two years. I went through and pulled all the, um, cost for the actual prints and the shipping and my time and all that, and, and got everything updated. So for the most part. Hasn't been drastic changes, but I would say that the cost have gone up more than even. I, I thought they had a lot of it on shipping. Um, but, so yeah, I'm in the midst of doing all that.
So that'll be done here hopefully today. Just gotta update the
[00:07:24] Jeffrey: Cool.
[00:07:24] Michael: file and upload it to the site. So a lot
[00:07:27] Jeffrey: Nice.
[00:07:27] Michael: stuff, so to speak. But
[00:07:29] Jeffrey: Yep, yep. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of that admin work that you gotta get taken care of. So it sounds like you've been busy For sure.
[00:07:35] Michael: definitely.
[00:07:36] Jeffrey: Always something.
[00:07:37] Michael: I've actually had the ability to concentrate on photography without some crazy life event coming up. Knock on
[00:07:43] Jeffrey: Yeah. Right. That's something new for you. For for the
[00:07:45] Michael: have said that out loud. Uh, and then I have decided that I am gonna go back to Colorado this summer.
So, uh,
I'll be going, I'll be getting there a week earlier this year. I've got a presentation on July 21st, so I'm gonna. Head out there, early enough that I can get back a couple days before that presentation and kind of rest up and go over my notes and and whatnot. But, uh, yeah, so I'll be out there for 10 days, including travel to and from.
But, uh, that should be a
[00:08:12] Jeffrey: Nice.
[00:08:12] Michael: Hoping to
[00:08:12] Jeffrey: Nice.
[00:08:13] Michael: uh, wild flowers a little better this year too, with being there a little earlier. So I think that's the, that's the gist of it. Nothing too exciting
[00:08:19] Jeffrey: That's great.
[00:08:19] Michael: the the proofing prints for the, the box set and then from the archives collection I'm working on, but
[00:08:24] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:08:25] Michael: a lot of behind the scenes stuff.
[00:08:26] Jeffrey: I've been trying to finalize my travel schedule for the fall and early winter, I guess, and trying to figure out where I'm going to extend trips and where, and everything like that. Just trying to piece it all together. So figure out what makes the most sense to, let me see the most places, the most efficiently, so. Yeah.
[00:08:41] Michael: Yeah. I wouldn't mind sneaking another trip in like September. I.
Um, but here it's still so warm in September into October, maybe get up to Oklahoma. It'll be a little cooler there. Hopefully. Uh, I haven't been there actually since 2022 I wanna say. So I'd really like to get back there. Um, but yeah, we'll just have to see.
Uh, and then I've got the, the Utah workshop kind
[00:09:03] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:09:04] Michael: Last was the third week of UT or of Utah of October. So that kind of falls in there too, right In the midst of the fall season, I gotta
[00:09:12] Jeffrey: Right.
Yep.
[00:09:13] Michael: we'll see.
[00:09:14] Jeffrey: Makes sense.
[00:09:15] Michael: see. So anyways, let's, uh, just jump into this topic. So artificial intelligence, Hey, good or bad.
[00:09:21] Jeffrey: Right. Oh, right. That's a, that's a big question, right? It. Of strong opinions on AI and how it works and how it applies to the creative. And then just where is the line if, if you think there is a line, where is that line? So,
[00:09:34] Michael: Yeah, I, I,
[00:09:36] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:09:36] Michael: is it's a very complex issue and like so many things, it gets portrayed a lot as black and white, but it's many, many shades of gray. You know, on one hand, the. Cleanup tools
[00:09:47] Jeffrey: Yes.
[00:09:48] Michael: rolled out in a camera, raw and Lightroom. Was that earlier this year? Last year? I can't even remember
[00:09:52] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:09:54] Michael: last year I guess it
[00:09:54] Jeffrey: Yeah. It was probably last year, I guess we're so early 2025.
[00:09:58] Michael: Like those are phenomenal for the
[00:09:59] Jeffrey: Yes,
[00:10:00] Michael: Yeah. They're not perfect, but far better than the tools that we had available to
[00:10:03] Jeffrey: definitely.
[00:10:04] Michael: so that's great image generation and manipulation, that's a whole other side of the coin, which, um. You know, there's a lot of ethical and artistic implications there, and arguments to be had in favor of it as well. Then you've got the, the environmental aspect with the amount of power that this AI
[00:10:23] Jeffrey: Right. A lot of people forget about that. The, the environmental impact of using some of the AI for anything, you know, image or even the text generation and text questions and answers.
[00:10:33] Michael: Yeah. When you've got these big companies buying old decommissioned power plants. It's, uh, especially when they're coal based, it's like, Hmm,
maybe, I need to rethink this whole thing.
So yeah, I mean, there's a lot of nuance and let's back up a step.
[00:10:49] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:10:49] Michael: again, you and I are both pretty similar.
I call myself a representational photographer. I'm trying to represent what I saw and witnessed and experienced. That doesn't mean I'm just going out and taking the photo and I'm not editing it, or I'm just using the basic profile and calling it a day. There's still a creative process in there, but as I, it's been a couple years now, I wrote a blog post about authenticity and, and the age of ai and, you know an increasingly artificial world.
And like you said, where do you draw that line
[00:11:18] Jeffrey: Right. between
[00:11:20] Michael: not just changing the appearance of the image to convey. How the scene felt. 'cause there is a difference to me, at least in what you truly see versus what you see creatively, what you feel emotionally, the experience of it, so on and so forth. Finding that line between that versus, and it's no different than Photoshop. Compositing or anything like
[00:11:42] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:11:42] Michael: never I've never done that. I'm not
[00:11:44] Jeffrey: I.
[00:11:44] Michael: I. personally am not interested in that. I have nothing against people that are, I think where all of this comes back to whether it's Photoshop manipulation, or ai, or AI generation, is the honesty and integrity piece of it.
[00:11:57] Jeffrey: Yes.
[00:11:58] Michael: and even in that regard, like calling myself a representational photographer and saying, you know, I'm representing what I saw. I think some people take that as I am. a straight photographer. Like I said, in that I've just taken the shot doing a very minimal, like profile edit or, you know, very minimal tonal adjustments and, and calling it a day that's on
[00:12:18] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:12:18] Michael: Sure, I do that, but is a creative aspect to it in that I want allow and to help the viewer see what I saw creatively, what I saw. Uh, experientially in the field, which isn't a straight photo, it's, Hey, I noticed
[00:12:35] Jeffrey: right.
[00:12:35] Michael: little
details over there. So I want to find ways to those through contrast or color management or texture or dodging a burning.
And I'm not, I'm not doing what I used to do where I'm adding in light or, or taking away light where it didn't really exist or, or you know, whatever. But
I'm
still. Working to massage the image I've always used the analogy of a raw file, like a raw steak. gonna take a raw steak and plop it down in front of somebody and tell 'em to enjoy. You're going to, it's not a perfect analogy because you know, for raw steak you would cook and season it to their preferences. But, you know, here's my vision of what the perfectly cooked steak is and how it's
[00:13:14] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:13:14] Michael: and everything.
[00:13:15] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:13:16] Michael: the way I look at the, the post-processing piece of it as well.
[00:13:19] Jeffrey: Yep. Season to taste.
[00:13:21] Michael: Seasoned to taste. So, but again, like you said, like there's that fine line. I know some people in the, uh, landscape photographers worldwide, uh, discord, they're vehemently against using the AI remove tools just to do cleanup and like I'll remove a branch in the corner of a frame or something that's distracting as long as it's not fundamentally changing what I
[00:13:42] Jeffrey: R
Right. It's like a temporary object in the scene or, or something like that, that just, oh, it's, it's an easy removal or it's a temporary thing in six months that that wouldn't be there. I.
[00:13:53] Michael: Yeah. Or even if, like for me, my line is, even if it's not temporary, if it's a small element that, and actually I just gave a presentation, two nights ago to a, to a group and somebody asked about this, and like my take is, especially with the fact that I shoot using my 100 to 500 lens so much,
[00:14:10] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:11] Michael: Plenty of times where I take the photo and I think it's perfect and I get back and I realize, oh, there's one bleed of grass sticking up somewhere between me and the scene that I just didn't see through the viewfinder. was, uh, almost no way of noticing it in the field, but now I've got it back in my computer.
It's there. You know, it's one thing if it's cut through the entire frame, but if it's just cutting in a little bit.
[00:14:32] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:14:32] Michael: I'll take that out no problem. 'cause it's not anything I saw. It's not anything I would expect a viewer to see, certainly with their naked eye if I'm shooting like
[00:14:42] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:14:42] Michael: millimeters. But you know, same thing. If they're looking through the lens, it was so minuscule and and faint that it wasn't noticeable. And the view finder the back of the camera. But once you've got it up on your bigger screen, oh shoot, there's this thing. So I'll
[00:14:55] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:14:55] Michael: like that too. That's not temporary, but it's a distraction from the vision. And the experience that I want to convey to the viewer or help the viewer understand, or again, it's just a, a, a distraction in some form that I'm worried is gonna pull the viewer's attention and pull their eye either outta the frame or away from what I really want them focused on.
[00:15:15] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:15:16] Michael: But again, as you and I both know, we've, we've, I think we've both been in the, the debate on that Discord channel is there's some photographers that will not use the AI remove tools, no matter how good they are, how much
[00:15:28] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:15:28] Michael: they
might be.
They wanna stick with like, content to wear repair that's using existing pick tools within the image,
[00:15:36] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:15:38] Michael: I get their point. But at the same time, and you know, maybe you disagree, I don't know. Feel free to chime in, but. You've got millions and millions and millions of pixels a frame. So to say, well, you know, this, remove is more legitimate or authentic because it's using pixels in the frame versus the remove that you did because you used AI to match what's in the frame.
But they're new pixels. Like
[00:16:03] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:16:04] Michael: I don't see a difference there.
[00:16:06] Jeffrey: right.
[00:16:06] Michael: I'm not altering, like I said, the fundamental essence of the frame and to say that. Selecting pixels outta the millions that are available is really any different than an AI remove. Like I don't really buy
[00:16:18] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yep. I think that's my biggest in the whole gray area conversation. I think it's that the, the old content, uh, remove options versus the generated options is where the biggest is. But I'm much more like you. I lean towards using the generated options 'cause this. Just makes me more efficient. And I don't feel like it's an abuse of ai.
I feel like it's looking at the image, taking it and yes, generating pixels to match what's going on. So it's just speeding it up a little bit. And I, so for me that's, that's where sort of, you know, it's great 'cause it like, to your point, I can understand, okay, yes, it's generating pixels for you as opposed to copying or cloning pixels or something like that.
But I just feel like it's. I don't know. I it, that's the toughest spot for me is that that that one right there, that remove, you get much beyond, and my line starts to get a little clearer, I think. But
[00:17:12] Michael: Yeah.
[00:17:12] Jeffrey: But with that said, my, I fall the same place you do. I don't have a problem with generative remove stuff.
I don't like to generate new objects in the frame. But if I'm just removing things from the frame, I don't mind letting the computer and that technology sort of. Make that branch disappear in a very clean fashion, which often much, much faster than I could do by hand, pixel by pixel, by just cloning things over.
So.
[00:17:38] Michael: right. I should have prefaced this whole conversation with. Jeffrey, you might have to just butt in and interrupt me. 'cause I am pretty passionate about this, so if I get on a roll, I may just keep going. But I, I, yeah, I I very much land the same way. 'cause at the end of the day, you're still creating something that wasn't in the frame
[00:17:56] Jeffrey: Uh, yes.
[00:17:57] Michael: like, let's use the example of that blurred blade of grass or a
[00:18:01] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:18:02] Michael: twig that's, you know, really closer to the camera than your main scene if you're removing it with content to aware or clone stamp or whatever.
Uh, know, legacy traditional tool you're using, you're still replacing something with pixels that weren't in that particular spot,
[00:18:20] Jeffrey: Right?
[00:18:20] Michael: and
[00:18:21] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:18:21] Michael: are from elsewhere in the frame of the file or they're created through ai, I just, I don't see a difference there
[00:18:30] Jeffrey: Y
[00:18:31] Michael: some black and white moral standing of, I'm not gonna use AI
[00:18:35] Jeffrey: and
[00:18:35] Michael: concerned about the environmental impact or other ethical concerns or
[00:18:38] Jeffrey: yeah, and I think that that's a good point. If you're, if you, if you have an environmental concern, which is another, another. Potential concern, then I, I can see more standing, but like you said, you're getting pixels that weren't there from somewhere else, whether it be somewhere else in the frame or from an ai, you know, generation, you're, you're doing that.
If you have environmental concerns about the generative aspect, I can start to see that, um, you know, that front. But yeah, I, I agree. Generative remove, I have no problems, with doing, uh, it's handy to remove people that, that. Random blade of grass that got in your way or that dead stick that's poking in and like, oh, this is, this is really a, and it's interesting, one of my smokey mountain photos from, not this trip, but one of my trips last year is I had a stream picture with this dead limb essentially coming across the stream and I posted it to, to the internet and say, do you like it with the limb in it or without?
And it, it, it's a whole wide variety. Even getting out of how I did it, just whether people object to, to. You know, object removal in general. But, um,
[00:19:45] Michael: Right.
[00:19:46] Jeffrey: but yeah, the generative ai, I, I, I like it makes Lightroom so much more friendly these days to just be able to remove it. So it's hard not to lean on it a bit.
[00:19:53] Michael: yeah, and like you said, it's so much more efficient.
[00:19:56] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:57] Michael: I can speed up my workflow, that means I'm freeing myself up to work on the next image or,
[00:20:02] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:20:02] Michael: you know, update
my pricing on the back end of my website, you know.
[00:20:06] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:20:06] Michael: Any myriad number of things continue proofing for my, my, my box set. So especially as somebody that's now running a business from, from photography and you know, you're doing it on the side, I need to be conscious of time value as well.
[00:20:23] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:20:23] Michael: something that can make a significant improvement on my time and honestly a lot of times give a better result that looks more natural or, you know, upon close inspection might be, might be, um. Uh, better or more true to what was actually there anyways
[00:20:38] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:20:38] Michael: restricted by those legacy tools, then I'm all for it. But like you,
[00:20:42] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:20:43] Michael: going to say, oh, I don't like that bush there. I'm gonna replace it with a tree or a different type of
[00:20:50] Jeffrey: R,
[00:20:50] Michael: or whatever.
[00:20:52] Jeffrey: Yep. And that's where I start to, that's where my gray starts to fade when I'm generating new objects, completely new objects and entities, like you said, swapping out pushes for rocks and things like that, then that to me is, you're nothing wrong with it. It's not for me. But yeah, that's, that's where my, I start to leave my gray area and have started to move solidly into the, how does AI factor into photography and is it still photography?
Once you start doing a lot of that.
[00:21:19] Michael: right. And again, AI to me, like it hasn't changed those fundamental questions other than the ease at which. Those results can be achieved. You've, you've had compositing and, you know, everything you can do in fo Photoshop for so long. And, and even with the, the basic legacy, you know, heel and, and, um, spot healing.
And
[00:21:39] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:40] Michael: like, I'll be honest, I've got two photos in my portfolio that I know for a fact where Lightroom, I made a pretty. A significant change that didn't alter the scene, but in one, I've got a shot of coming into shore and there's, there's kind of motion blurred birds flying through the sky.
[00:21:59] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:00] Michael: original frame, those birds were really close to the top edge of the frame. So within light room, doing a little clever trickery with their, their, uh, heel tool. I moved the birds
[00:22:10] Jeffrey: Down into the
[00:22:11] Michael: yeah, more into the boundary of the frame so it didn't have that tension against the edge.
[00:22:15] Jeffrey: right.
[00:22:15] Michael: one where. I've got a, a Utah view with a beautiful, you know, dust sky and some little pink clouds. And, and the version that I ended up using with the crop, those clouds were really close in the upper left corner. So using only Lightroom, I moved the clouds.
[00:22:30] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:31] Michael: it doesn't mean that these things weren't possible
[00:22:34] Jeffrey: R Right. People have been doing sky swaps and putting objects into frames or extracting objects from one frame, putting them in the other for a long time. And like you said, it's almost more, AI has just brought that to more people
[00:22:46] Michael: Right,
[00:22:47] Jeffrey: made it more easy to do. If that's, if that's your thing to add and remove significant objects from a frame.
[00:22:54] Michael: right. And with those two examples I just gave, if somebody were to ask me like, is this scene true to life, true to what you saw and experienced, I personally would have no issue saying yes,
[00:23:04] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:04] Michael: though I moved two little clouds and I moved those birds like. That doesn't change the fundamental representation of what I saw and witnessed.
You
[00:23:15] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:23:15] Michael: just tilted my camera up a little bit, the birds wouldn't have been closer to the top edge. Or if I waited a second, maybe they would've come down further in the frame
[00:23:22] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:23:22] Michael: I could've, you know, when I was there on site, I maybe could've taken a few steps to the right and they wanted to bend so close to the upper corner.
So, yeah, there's, there's those differences is like removing a branch versus removing. A whole tree or something. It's the same thing. Like, I'm not changing in those two examples. I'm not changing the landscape or, or,
[00:23:43] Jeffrey: right.
[00:23:43] Michael: the
scene. but everybody's line is going to be different. There's plenty of people I know that probably heard me say what I just did, or like, oh, you know, how could
[00:23:53] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:23:53] Michael: call yourself a representational photographer,
[00:23:55] Jeffrey: typing on their keyboard right now and ready to leave comments?
[00:23:59] Michael: right. As a reminder, head over to our Patreon. Even if you're a free member, you can leave comments on our
[00:24:04] Jeffrey: Yes. Yes,
[00:24:05] Michael: So, the line is different for everybody and even for me, it's, it's a blurry line at times,
[00:24:11] Jeffrey: yes.
[00:24:11] Michael: but it's just, I know when I cross it I know, I know when I would cross it
[00:24:18] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:24:18] Michael: and
[00:24:19] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:24:19] Michael: a
fundamental.
Belief that I have, if I ever were to do something, that was more of a drastic change to misrepresenting how it truly looked. I, I would be honest about it. And that's the other big thing I think is where you get into the ethics of all this. You know, we've seen big names
[00:24:37] Jeffrey: I.
[00:24:37] Michael: and
landscape photography, uh, at least early on that on their Instagram feeds, started sharing work without disclosing.
That was completely AI generated.
[00:24:47] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:24:48] Michael: You know, to me that is, that is It's immoral that you are now conveying something to an audience. And in those particular cases, especially like your audience is following you because they have loved your photography, and at least it was a representation of those truly experienced and moments and and nature. now all of a sudden, without saying anything, you're. You're throwing up a bunch of completely quote unquote fantasy scenes that may look real, but they're not. But
[00:25:21] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:25:22] Michael: you're not, you're not sharing that information at all. So your audience is an assumption. Oh, wow.
Where, you know, look at that thought you got, that's amazing. How did you do that? I've never seen anybody else do that. Well, sure. Because it's completely, you know, generated from, from your imagination
[00:25:36] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:25:36] Michael: props. So
[00:25:37] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:25:38] Michael: that's the stuff I really have a problem with.
[00:25:40] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:25:40] Michael: again, it's the same thing for me like. I got nothing against people that go into Photoshop and, you know, create composited artwork from scratch or, know, composite photo from scratch or make major changes with compositing and everything. But be honest about it, like that in itself is an impressive skillset.
[00:25:58] Jeffrey: Yes.
[00:25:59] Michael: So there's really no reason to not be honest or forthright about it unless you're trying to. Misrepresent or mislead your audience, in my opinion. I'm
sure there's exceptions to that rule, but,
Yeah,
um, I
I agree.
I gotta take a brief breath here, man. This is, like I
said,
[00:26:14] Michael: this is where
I get a little fired up.
[00:26:16] Jeffrey: Yeah, I agree. I think once you, there's nothing, and I think that's the key here, if that's how you enjoy it, these extensive composites or lots of AI work there, I'm not trying to say anyone's having bad, wrong fun or doing it wrong. It's that, like you mentioned as we segued into this, the how you represent or present, that is it. If you present it as a photograph, I feel like that's where you start to run into this quandary of. It's not really a photograph anymore, it starts to turn into digital art, which is not meant from, at least for how I say it, not meant as a slight or anything like that. Have at it. Love it, enjoy it. ''cause to your point, uh, we've got, I've, I know someone that does these, composites, but they're these amazing flower images where he will take an a specific flower petal one that he really likes, and then composite together these very ornate.
[00:27:07] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:08] Jeffrey: Photographs. I say they are actually comp, they're now digital art because of what he's done. But the resulting piece of work is just amazing. It's, it's real, like his attention to detail, his skill to pull it off is every bit as much as a a, as one of the landscape photographer greats, where if he calls it a photograph though, I start to have some objection because it's like, okay, it, it's digital art.
It's amazing digital art too, but it's not really, it is left that ground of, of, of being a photograph. So yeah, I think that representation, I think is a key. And I think ultimately that's almost what gets most people, uh, up. Uh. Up in arms about AI to a degree. It's the right it's, it's, the how you represent it.
If you tell, uh, it's digital art, awesome. Have at it and you're really good at it. Those are some amazing, interesting looking images and artwork to look at. It's when they say it's a photograph and never reveal it, or even worse, when questioned about it, will try to. Delete comments or, you know, not even right. We've, we've, we've seen that and that's, that is annoying as all get out, I think, and I think even more so for the photographers like you and I who are a little more representational in style and trying to be fairly true to the scene. Uh, yes, we season to taste. Um, but yeah, I, I think that's the challenge is with all the AI is, and, and even look at your Facebook feeds these days, I've watched.
Photographs of places I've photographed saying it's a certain place. Blackwater Falls in West Virginia. I've watched 'em post, it's like one, it doesn't even look anything like Blackwater Falls and it's getting a ton of likes, comments a whole bit. Granted the comments range from, that's beautiful to, that's ai, but again, it's, there's no. Call out that this was AI generated. This is digital art, not, it's an interpretation of black waterfalls, not an actual photo of black waterfalls. All of which, you know, that representation of how you pedal your work, I think is so important in one of the sticking points.
[00:29:11] Michael: of
[00:29:12] Jeffrey: Yes. Yep.
[00:29:13] Michael: That's
[00:29:13] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:29:13] Michael: But again, be truthful about it.
[00:29:16] Jeffrey: Yep. I mean, paintings, they, you know, a lot of times there, there's a bit of a abstract or their take on it, how it feels through the painting and art and that's great.
I've seen paintings of classic places. No, they are not one-to-one, copies, but it's, uh. It, it's an interpretation of the place. And, and that's fair too. Just, but like you said, call it out for what it is and it's not diminishing of your skill to say that it's those little art that's a tremendous amount of skill goes into that.
But yeah, that AI is, that's where we start to get into my, it's less gray area for there. And I have a little more, we're drawing lines in the sand almost at that point for, for my thought.
[00:29:53] Michael: For somebody to create an image from AI and call it a photograph,
First of all
to me that is just absolutely absurd. It's not a photograph. Um, but it'd be no different than. A landscape painter making a painting from scratch with, you know, acrylics and brushes and saying, look at this photo I took. Or, a tile mosaic artist doing the same thing with their art, you know,
[00:30:16] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:30:16] Michael: look at this photo. Isn't this like, it's not a photo, like just. Admit it. Like
Right.
[00:30:23] Jeffrey: I
[00:30:23] Michael: I don't get it. yeah, as soon as somebody crosses into that realm, which
again
we've
seen with, uh, some of these photographers that have started misleading their audiences where people start questioning or calling 'em out on it and they start deleting comments. I think one of them even turned off the ability for anybody to comment at all. Like
[00:30:40] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:30:40] Michael: me, that Right.
there, you've just shown your hand, like you are not doing it for the right reasons. You're not doing it as some kind of social experiment to see if people notice or what they
[00:30:48] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:30:48] Michael: You're strictly doing it and now you're being called out on it and you don't want people to know,
[00:30:54] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:30:54] Michael: to, you don't want
to have to explain yourself or whatever. And much like Photoshop, like there is a skill to generate something truly impressive and beautiful with generated text prompts. So again, why not just say, look at this thing I created. It's not a photograph, it's a piece of AI generated art, but it's something that maybe they don't have the technical skills.
Like I couldn't go into, I, we've talked about, I barely use Photoshop. I haven't
[00:31:28] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:31:28] Michael: probably in a year. certainly couldn't go in and, and make a composite art piece or photo or anything like that from scratch, I could potentially. something artistic in my mind's eye and produce it through artificial intelligence.
It's opening that door. The other, other thing that I argued for its benefit and use case in the blog post I wrote is. For somebody that's not physically capable
[00:31:54] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:55] Michael: creating art in another manner. Now suddenly you've opened this whole world to somebody who maybe they've always been a very artistic person, mentally, they just haven't had the physical capacity to do it.
For whatever reason, you've just opened this whole new world to them. By allowing them, especially now that you can interact with like chat GPT via just voice and
[00:32:18] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:32:19] Michael: that's incredible. That's, that's awesome. But I
[00:32:22] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:32:23] Michael: them to do it and turn around like, look, I went out and made this photo.
[00:32:26] Jeffrey: Right, exactly.
Exactly.
[00:32:28] Michael: thing for somebody that been able to do it, for whatever reason, lack of skills or lack of ability or, you know, physical limitations to suddenly have that door opened up. That's beautiful,
[00:32:40] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:32:41] Michael: but. It's all this other junk that comes with it that is disheartening.
[00:32:47] Jeffrey: yep. For sure.
[00:32:48] Michael: So how
[00:32:48] Jeffrey: So,
[00:32:48] Michael: I know
some people have, uh, do, do you have a question? Instead of me talking and
[00:32:52] Jeffrey: no, no, go ahead. You, you, you go on. We'll see if you're gonna go where I was gonna go.
[00:32:58] Michael: um, I'm guessing not, but I've, I've seen some people, and it's, it, it's been an argument, it's been around even just, you know, with Photoshop before AI came into the mix. But that the more we misrepresent truth in nature. the less people are gonna value nature or
[00:33:14] Jeffrey: Yeah,
because you're, if you're putting out,
[00:33:16] Michael: it when you are out,
[00:33:17] Jeffrey: yeah, I mean, I think there's a whole lot of things to unwrap in there too. If you're putting together these unrealistic pictures and then you as a tourist or a visitor, go visit one of these places and it's nothing like the photo. And granted there's some timing, right?
As nature photographers, we tend to go out and some pretty terrible conditions, or we're out so frequently that we might have been to a spot. 10 times and only once was it like, this is really, the light's really going off type thing. But yeah, I think it sort of desensitizes you to, if you're seeing these heavily AI manipulated images, when you go see these things in person, you might, it doesn't look as colorful or if you've got someone doing peak stretching, you know, like those mountains aren't as pointy as the photos I like are,
that I think, yeah, I think it can lead to sort of desensitize, desensitizing you to those, to what nature really looks like. You know, for me some of the fun is the chase of these, these unique conditions and these unique lighting. And sometimes one, one day a spot may look. Yeah, it's sort of boring and bland today.
I Enjoy the experience still. But if, yeah, if everything you see is always these amazing. Manipulated images. Yeah. I think it can desensitize you to what the real natural world is like. And to continue that as a photographer, it can put undue pressure on you too, right? Like, you're like, why am I not getting this scene that I've seen online from multiple people?
When really you're comparing what's really happening in the real world to very heavy manipulation or AI
[00:34:48] Michael: or AI Yeah. And, and you know, again, that's something I discussed in that blog post is when I first started out, know, I was following photographers that inspired me and this and that, and I very much that I could not figure out like, why is my work so. Uh, flat or boring or it just doesn't
[00:35:08] Jeffrey: And
[00:35:08] Michael: that, that same look.
And now I look at that stuff, I'm like, you know, it's obviously heavily manipulated or
[00:35:14] Jeffrey: yes.
[00:35:15] Michael: but starting out I didn't know any better and I hadn't spent my life out in nature. I, you know, one could argue, I should have realized that some of the stuff was, was heavily manipulated at, at the very least.
But, you know, that was really. Disheartening as somebody who was a fan of someone's representation of nature to find out that, oh, you know what? It actually isn't representation of nature. It's art,
[00:35:39] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:35:40] Michael: no longer treating nature Truthfully, we're showing
[00:35:44] Jeffrey: Yep,
[00:35:44] Michael: like not to. wax poetically or like, nature is fricking beautiful.
I guess
[00:35:51] Jeffrey: for sure.
[00:35:52] Michael: but
so why is there this feeling that we have to amp it up and, you know,
[00:35:57] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:35:57] Michael: it
more dramatic and crazier and bolder, more saturated and, and the whole bit. And again, if that's somebody's style and, and you know, there's people that do that and it's, it is, it's beautiful artwork, I would call it. But to me it's, I think an analogy might be. Probably have heard stories when like New York City has a, a brownout or a blackout and the city goes dark at night. 1 1 gets calls about all these weird lights in the sky
[00:36:24] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:25] Michael: seeing the Milky Way or you know, just stars for the first time.
[00:36:29] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:36:29] Michael: I, and I think if as artists, photographers, whatever, if we truly wanna be advocates for nature from a, you know, protecting the land, protecting. The per, you know, nothing's pristine these days, but
[00:36:44] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:36:44] Michael: from a conservation standpoint, the more we misrepresent it or create fantasy versions of it, I think for all of those people, and I, I'm totally pulling this out of thin
[00:36:58] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:59] Michael: that the majority of people maybe haven't spent much time in nature,
[00:37:03] Jeffrey: Right?
[00:37:03] Michael: those dense urban environments. So. To them. A pretty scene is a pretty scene is a pretty scene. I don't know that they're gonna feel as invested in protecting what's truly beautiful when when they're inundated with all of this other stuff that's also beautiful but doesn't really exist.
[00:37:25] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:37:26] Michael: If, if that makes sense.
[00:37:27] Jeffrey: Yeah, it makes sense. makes sense.
[00:37:29] Michael: I, if I can enjoy something and it's fake, like, well what does it really matter if we lose it?
'cause look how, look how beautiful
[00:37:34] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:37:34] Michael: this AI generated
thing is, or this, you know, Photoshop composite is, or what have you.
[00:37:39] Jeffrey: right.
[00:37:39] Michael: it's
it's
it's replacing an unreplaceable or irreplaceable commodity with something that is potentially able to replace it in people's. Appreciation and concern for its survival
[00:37:57] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:37:57] Michael: I feel like I'm not framing it the
[00:37:59] Jeffrey: No, I think I get it. I, yeah, I think I get it. It's, it's, there's a whole subset of people that don't get out in nature. So if you're not out in nature to actually see it and you, your consumption of these AI images, it becomes a replacement to it. It diminishes the value of the real natural world because you can get that same.
Dopamine hit by looking at this thing generated from AI versus those of us that get out in nature even infrequently. We sort of have that more in touch with nature and realize that. Those are two competing elements, but there's probably a whole subset of people just don't get the opportunity, for whatever reason, to get out often or, or experience some of these great places.
And that need is fulfilled through this AI image, um, which makes them less likely to care that about the national parks or national forests or anything like that, even though there's still tremendous value to them,
Throughout
[00:38:51] Michael: can experience this in virtual reality now
[00:38:53] Jeffrey: Right ex.
[00:38:53] Michael: my Apple vision or me
[00:38:55] Jeffrey: exactly.
[00:38:56] Michael: or, or whatever.
[00:38:57] Jeffrey: Exactly.
[00:38:58] Michael: kind of winding this down, 'cause I, I think we've, or at least I feel if you've got more to say, like I said, jump in and tell me to shut up. My final thoughts on it too is, is more from a, just. Pure humanity standpoint as well of, well, two there. There's one from an artistic standpoint and, and humanity. And then there's one also that, like the really scary side of it, which I don't know if you saw it in the AI channel on the, uh, the discord yesterday, but
[00:39:29] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:29] Michael: the last couple days there's been some, some videos shared that the visuals are completely AI generated.
The speech is completely, the voices are completely AI generated and. I can't tell, like on my phone, like there's maybe an occasional little like uncanny valley thing, but
[00:39:46] Jeffrey: Right?
[00:39:47] Michael: you can't tell. So speaking to the scary part first,
[00:39:51] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:39:52] Michael: you know, it was one thing to say, well, maybe I can't trust a photo or something presented as a photo anymore.
But if there's video supporting it,
[00:40:00] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:40:01] Michael: the authenticity or lack of there, you know, thereof.
[00:40:04] Jeffrey: right.
[00:40:04] Michael: And I've said that with my work, like part of why I've started doing infield videos and writing my field reports and trip reports and all that stuff, and shown behind the scenes photos is 'cause like, hey, my audience, I, I'm a representational photographer.
I'm, I'm working from an authentic place. I want my audience to trust me, so here's how I'm gonna show 'em to do it. But seeing this stuff and how quickly it has evolved from the totally terrifying will Smith eating spaghetti of two or three years ago to. Somebody who's very skeptical of, of any media these days and looking at it on my phone and going, if somebody hadn't told me, I don't know that I would've ever picked up that this was completely 100% fake.
[00:40:45] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yep.
[00:40:46] Michael: And that
is like, well now what's to keep somebody in another year or two from saying. Oh, I'll just make AI generated images and then I'll make AI generated video of myself out making these images. But all of it's fake. Like
I don't know
[00:41:02] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:41:02] Michael: how you reinforce the, the reality versus
non-reality I listened to the controversial Gary v uh, podcast here and there.
[00:41:12] Jeffrey: Uh, you know anyone not familiar, he is a big social media guy, always be on social media, but that he does q and as at these conferences and he was talking, I. Someone was asking about what about AI generated influencers? So essentially they're business minded, so they're trying to pedal their brand through an influencer, but without hiring the influencer and doing it through AI and his take Gary V's.
Take was, yeah, that's common. And like in a year you won't even know that that influencer doing their hashtag van life or something is actually an AI entity. and like you said, those videos that are already starting to surface just how far it has come and. Just even within the chat, GPT generate image timeframe, it's, it's crazy. And at first I'm like, I don't know. But as I start to think about it, and after seeing some of that stuff on the Discord, it's like, eh, a year off might not be so far if you're trying to pedal a certain brand of sandals to just have your. AI influencer that no one's gonna pay that close of attention to.
They just wanna see a van parked on a beach with the right, uh, preset applied to it and they think it hits that vibe they want. So yeah, scary times. The implications of that even beyond just advertising into, uh, politics. Can you trust what people are saying out there? You know, not to delve into the politics, but like you are gonna have to be so careful of what is being put out as true.
Uh, yeah. I don't even know how to combat it, you know?
[00:42:38] Michael: Providence? I mean, I know Adobe's got their content, um, what is it? Content Authenticity initiative or whatever
[00:42:46] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:42:46] Michael: have signed on. you know, if somebody's scrolling through their social media feed. Or as you know, one of the comments on the Reddit post with the video I saw yesterday, like one of the top comments was, my grandma's not ready for this.
Like, people aren't going to like, oh, I better go check the authenticity. It
looks so real and is so convincing. I, and
[00:43:05] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:43:05] Michael: keep going back to this video of, entirely generated scene of people being interviewed at a car show and it's just. Uh, mind blowing how far it has come and
[00:43:18] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:43:18] Michael: it is starting to look and yeah, I don't want to go down a whole
[00:43:21] Jeffrey: Yep. Yeah, but it's scary.
[00:43:23] Michael: but politics, but like, to me the, the geopolitical socioeconomic ramifications of all this are pretty terrifying.
[00:43:32] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:33] Michael: influencers. Well, why would a brand go out and pay a real human to go out and do something
[00:43:38] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:43:38] Michael: they can? You know, conceivably in another couple years or even now,
[00:43:43] Jeffrey: Just
[00:43:44] Michael: put in some
[00:43:45] Jeffrey: generate it. Yep.
[00:43:46] Michael: have at it, and you're done for, you know, way, way, way cheaper.
[00:43:50] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:43:50] Michael: Which all that kind of circles back to the point I was getting at before or started to go down is the humanity side of everything. And maybe I'm old fashioned or unrealistic or whatever, but like it has bothered me over the last. Five, 10 years. how enthusiastically and how quick humans, we'll just say humans in general, not anybody specific, but have been to embrace all of the, well, if I can have it delivered to me,
[00:44:21] Jeffrey: Oh,
[00:44:22] Michael: people
[00:44:22] Jeffrey: don't even get me started with that.
[00:44:25] Michael: I I don't want to go to the restaurant.
I'll just have it delivered. And, and now we're going down this new path with ai. Where it's like we're just determined again globally, not,
[00:44:40] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:41] Michael: not us, you,
[00:44:42] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:44:42] Michael: me
[00:44:43] Jeffrey: right.
[00:44:43] Michael: listeners, but we as a species and you know, you could say tech companies, but we're just determined to do everything we can to strip out the humanity of life
[00:44:53] Jeffrey: Yep.
To not interact
[00:44:54] Michael: Right, the
[00:44:56] Jeffrey: a human.
[00:44:57] Michael: Like for me personally, if I am. Scrolling through something and I see, oh, this is really beautiful, and I read the caption. It's like, oh, I generated, like, I immediately, I just like, I lose all sense of connection or awe, or curiosity or wonder knowing it's something that I was completely, fantasy generated.
And I, I
[00:45:17] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:45:18] Michael: way again, with Photoshop, you might be able to respect the, the skill and, and the, you know, creative vision and everything that went into it, but I just. Less so with Photoshop compared to ai, but with AI stuff especially, it's just like, I wanna, I wanna know a human made that, I wanna know
that
somebody with life experiences and passions and heartbreak and you know, a story and a reality to them.
You know, a heart and soul,
However you
wanna
frame it. Like, I wanna know that was made by a human. I don't wanna look at stuff Yeah, that like how far away are we from having AI just create a AI stuff? It's probably already happening, I would
guess.
[00:45:56] Jeffrey: Right. I'm sure it's happening somewhere.
[00:45:58] Michael: so I, I don't understand this extreme desire. Like, I joke like, oh, and hate people, blah, blah, blah.
But you know what? I love going out to, to eat. Like,
[00:46:08] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:46:08] Michael: like going back to the same places where they recognize me and, they're not my friends, but it's just nice to have that human connection.
[00:46:14] Jeffrey: Right.
For sure.
[00:46:15] Michael: I, I don't understand this rush to. Like it's really like Wally, where it's
[00:46:22] Jeffrey: Uh, right.
[00:46:23] Michael: be sitting in
[00:46:24] Jeffrey: plugged into our little goggles and Yeah. it never have to interact. Yeah, I agree. I like, like I still go to a local photography club, which, you know, I, I know are getting to be few and far in between with all the online. Especially post COVID where people did move to a lot of virtual stuff. But I still go to my in-person ones, just 'cause it's cool to go see some people that I know and how you've been, and they're not even all landscape photographers.
It's a whole variety, but it's still just a, I try to make it a point to go to the monthly meeting just to go hang out. Talk to other photographers, it's like-minded people and get those social interactions, you know, instead of just, you know, as a, as a photographer, we do a lot of solo time and a lot of behind the scenes work that doesn't involve people.
So those connections I think, are important. It's one of the things I like about workshops, right?
[00:47:06] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:07] Jeffrey: I enjoy teaching, but I also like hearing from these people. I mean, just think of the last group we were with. I mean, we've, it's fun. Like you get to know 'em, you joke, you go back and forth and it's like you don't.
Get that, and you and I hang out in some of the same online communities, but it is still a different level of community to do it in person than it is to do it virtually.
It's a, it's a great point. Why are we, why do we keep taking this stuff to insulate us from human interaction and experience?
It's, it's, it is mind boggling. And I say that. Similar to you. I say I don't like people all the time. You know, like, I'm an introvert. I need a time to recharge my batteries. I fully acknowledge that. Um, but at the same time, it, some interactions are good and it, it's a positive thing. So it, it'll be interesting to see it's as, as we go and how people insulate themselves and what happens to the people that don't want to insulate themselves completely.
And
[00:47:58] Michael: Right.
[00:47:59] Jeffrey: it's challenging times.
[00:48:01] Michael: Yeah. And I think we could have a whole other podcast episode if we wanted to branch out a photography just around, you Oh yeah.
social media
[00:48:08] Jeffrey: Yes. know,
[00:48:08] Michael: relationships and friendships and
[00:48:11] Jeffrey: Yes.
[00:48:11] Michael: for, for the younger generations and that. But you know, I would say kind of going back to that connection humanity piece, a good example is Heather and I. shop at Target,
[00:48:23] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:23] Michael: target pickup, you know, drive up, uh,
order pickup. It's great. There's one guy at our local Target, he is the nicest guy. He's always just enthusiastic and happy and super friendly and, you know, well, it's not a conversation, but you can just tell like he's, he's a happy human being
[00:48:42] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:48:43] Michael: it makes us happy just to have that brief little interaction with it.
[00:48:47] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:48:47] Michael: let's say. week, target says, oh, we're gonna lay all those people off and we're going to, you know, wield robots to
[00:48:55] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:48:55] Michael: out.
[00:48:56] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:48:56] Michael: Like, now you've just lost that. So now it's this totally sterile interaction and okay, maybe, maybe AI and the robot and, you know, they can chat with you in that, but there's not the facial connection and eye contact and it is just
[00:49:10] Jeffrey: Yeah, it's different. It's different.
[00:49:12] Michael: will, will make me, will make me sad.
I know that's
[00:49:15] Jeffrey: Yes.
[00:49:16] Michael: but
[00:49:17] Jeffrey: No, it's important.
[00:49:18] Michael: the same thing as going
[00:49:19] Jeffrey: It,
[00:49:19] Michael: art. Like I
[00:49:20] Jeffrey: yeah,
[00:49:20] Michael: a
connection with the
[00:49:21] Jeffrey: it.
[00:49:21] Michael: behind the art,
not
[00:49:22] Jeffrey: To me it ties back exactly. To me, it ties back. Our photography, I think is our connection to nature that we want to share with other humans. So it's it. That's why this whole AI thing, I think makes it more complicated. We've talked, even just this short podcast, we've talked about how for some people the AI could remove you from nature because it's good enough.
I don't need to get out and in sharing with other people. You and I've established, we have value in those human connections and photography's like that neat middle ground of we get to go out and experience nature in person on a regular basis and then share that with the human connection through real people and not just online or, or anything like that.
So I, I think it makes a full circle and it's, it's a, like you said, it's a huge topic, uh, to touch on, but I do think it all comes back around to the photography element of that.
[00:50:09] Michael: Authenticity, integrity, honesty, and I'll throw in humanity. God dammit.
[00:50:13] Jeffrey: Yeah, that's a good one. That's, that's good.
[00:50:15] Michael: it's, Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:50:16] Jeffrey: Awesome.
[00:50:17] Michael: can, I need to like go take a, a long walk after
[00:50:19] Jeffrey: Yeah. You gotta relax.
[00:50:21] Michael: I'm like, I can feel my face is feeling flushed, but,
[00:50:23] Jeffrey: Yeah, it's a great topic. It's good. It's such a big topic and it's, it's important I.
[00:50:28] Michael: So any, any final thoughts before we wrap this one up? I think we've covered everything,
[00:50:32] Jeffrey: No, I think we've covered it pretty well. you know, be authentic. if you're, if you're using lots of ai, nope. Do it. Have fun. Enjoy it. Just, you know, be upfront about it. Make sure you know, you're, you're selling the real thing and, and, and what you're doing. And it takes skill to do it and have at it.
And, that's it. But yeah, great topic.
[00:50:51] Michael: Cool. So I will say for our listeners slash viewers, if you've made it this far into the episode, which I know, you know, this can, this topic can rile up, uh, a lot of people or people are just kind of sick of it, but, uh, it's something that, I felt passionately about and clearly Jeffrey does too.
But we'd love to hear your thoughts
[00:51:08] Jeffrey: For sure.
[00:51:08] Michael: over to our Patreon. You don't have to be a paid member. You can, you can find the, um, the post for this episode and, and leave your own thoughts, comments. Pushback on, on our viewpoints or counterpoints, what have you. Would definitely love to hear that from you. Uh, 'cause you know, I know early on I was dead set against everything to do with ai and, and I've come around a little bit on some of the stuff, but, I. Yeah, so I, I, I'm always looking to evolve my, my understanding and, and positions as well. But I think I'm, I think I'm pretty well rooted on this one, but somebody can convince me otherwise.
So I'd say, uh, if you got nothing else, Jeffrey, let's just wrap this thing up.
[00:51:44] Jeffrey: Yep. Awesome.
[00:51:45] Michael: once again, thanks for listening. I'm Michael, that's Jeffrey, whichever side he's on. And, always, until
next time, take care.
[00:51:53] Jeffrey: Yep. Thanks everyone.
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Michael Rung
Michael is a nature and landscape photographer based in Texas, with a deep appreciation for quiet forests and the unique character of trees. His photography often explores the subtle beauty in overlooked scenes, capturing atmosphere and emotion through careful composition and light. Michael brings thoughtful insight, honest reflections, and a grounded perspective to every episode of Shutter Nonsense.
Jeffrey Tadlock
Jeffrey is a landscape photographer from Ohio who finds inspiration in waterfalls, scenic overlooks, and the ever-changing light of the natural world. He enjoys sharing stories from the field and helping others improve their skills through practical, experience-based tips. With a passion for teaching and a love of the outdoors, Jeffrey brings clarity and encouragement to fellow photographers at all levels.
