Episode 05 - Finding Beauty Beyond the Grand Scenes in Nature Photography
- Shutter Nonsense
- Jul 15
- 49 min read
Updated: Aug 11
Discussing the evolution of nature photographers over time.
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Episode Summary
Exploring the Evolution of Nature Photography: From Grand Vistas to Intimate Scenes
In the latest episode of Shutter Nonsense, Michael and Jeffrey delve into a fascinating topic relevant to many in the world of nature photography: the progression from capturing grand vistas to focusing on smaller, more intimate scenes. This shift in focus not only reflects changes in personal preferences but also offers insights into the broader landscape photography community.
Debating the Evolution of Nature Photographers
Michael and Jeffrey kick off the episode by discussing how many photographers, including themselves, have experienced a natural progression from photographing vast landscapes to exploring smaller, more detailed scenes. They debate whether this shift is a genuine trend or simply a reflection of personal growth and evolution within the art form itself.
Jeffrey shares his personal journey, starting out with a strong focus on grand scenes, such as landscapes and seascapes, but gradually moving towards capturing the beauty in smaller, often overlooked details of nature. Michael relates, emphasizing that although he appreciates intricate photography, he finds himself comfortable within the realms of small but not minuscule scenes. This discussion highlights the importance of photographing what one is truly passionate about rather than following trends.
The Role of Small Scenes in Photography
As Jeffrey and Michael discuss their experiences, they both agree that capturing smaller scenes allows for a deeper connection with the natural environment. They emphasize that the transition towards smaller scene photography is often driven by a growing appreciation for nature's subtler details. Jeffrey mentions how recognizing these details is a skill that develops over time, as photographers become more in tune with nature.
The discussion also touches upon the technical aspect, where both hosts agree that photographing smaller scenes provides more opportunities to inject personal style and creativity. Unlike iconic grand vistas, smaller scenes open up possibilities for unique compositions, enabling photographers to capture something that truly represents their individual perspective.
Adapting Creative Vision Through Photography
Michael offers advice to photographers aiming to expand their creative photography skills. He suggests spending time simply observing and exploring one's surroundings, advocating for a conscious effort to seek out less obvious details within the landscape. Jeffrey concurs, recommending exercises such as limiting oneself to a specific lens to spark creativity and challenge traditional viewpoints.
Both agree on the benefits of integrating smaller scene photography into one's repertoire. It not only offers a more versatile toolkit but also reduces dependency on rare weather conditions required for capturing perfect grand vistas. By honing skills in this way, photographers can create compelling imagery in myriad conditions, giving them flexibility and adaptability.
The Storytelling Aspect of Nature Photography
The episode explores whether smaller scenes allow for more effective storytelling in photography. Michael and Jeffrey share the notion that while not every photograph needs to narrate a story, smaller scenes provide greater potential for embedding more of personal insight and artistic expression.
Through Michael's anecdote of titling photos and discovering stories post-editing, listeners are reminded that storytelling can emerge during any stage of the creative process. It's a reminder that creativity isn't confined to the moment of capture but evolves through reflection and interpretation.
Related Links
Conclusion: Finding Balance and Passion in Photography
Wrapping up their discussion, Michael and Jeffrey return to the core message of the importance of photographing what truly resonates with the photographer. Be it grand landscapes or intimate scenes, maintaining passion and authenticity is key. Their dialogue underscores the idea that the journey in photography is personal, yet shared among peers who all traverse similar phases of growth and exploration.
Ultimately, the episode serves as both an inspiration and a guide, encouraging photographers to explore the depths of their creativity and expand their photographic vision beyond what meets the eye. Whether you're an aspiring photographer or a seasoned professional, the evolution from grand vistas to intimate scenes is a journey worth embarking on, offering endless opportunities for creative expression in nature photography.
Full Transcript
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[00:00:40] Michael: welcome everybody to episode five of shutter Nonsense. I think that's a, pretty exciting milestone we've hit here, jeffrey.
[00:00:45] Jeffrey: Oh, for sure. It's awesome that we've, we've already gone this far and episode five does seem like a milestone
[00:00:50] Michael: It only took me what four tries to, uh, actually record that intro properly. So I'm becoming a pro.
[00:00:56] Jeffrey: we've still got room to grow. We're always learning
[00:00:58] Michael: Definitely got room to grow.
[00:01:00] Jeffrey: I think I'm on my fourth different camera recording this, so
[00:01:03] Michael: Yeah. Between what? Your laptop camera, your DI pocket three. Your Z five
[00:01:09] Jeffrey: 30.
[00:01:09] Michael: 30.
[00:01:10] Jeffrey: Yep. And now my phone.
[00:01:12] Michael: Not your phone. I, I, could say something about Nikon, but we already had that conversation before we started recording, so
[00:01:19] Jeffrey: off
[00:01:20] Michael: audience can imagine, uh, what that was about as a canon shooter myself. so hey, let's just jump into it per the usual.
[00:01:27] Michael: I know I've been neck deep and then some just in preparing for the, uh, the launch of the podcast, which I know timeline wise, this is totally, off kilter in terms of the timeline we're talking about here and the reality of when you're listening to it. Right,
[00:01:41] Jeffrey: we are
[00:01:42] Michael: right,
[00:01:43] Jeffrey: five and is like, but really in reality, we're in the middle of all
[00:01:46] Michael: right,
[00:01:47] Jeffrey: work to get it
[00:01:48] Michael: right. So we're about 10 days from our, from our official launch on Tuesday, June 10th. And it feels like we've got like 24 hours left with as much as we've been around trying to figure out final edits and music and audio levels.
[00:02:01] Michael: And were working on what pod being yesterday. So yeah, lots,
[00:02:05] Jeffrey: set up back
[00:02:06] Michael: lots going on. So that's been the bulk of work since we last spoke. Um, I did get all of my pricing and everything updated on my website. That was a good like eight hours of work. for all the, uh, the print is,
[00:02:17] Jeffrey: right? I forget how many row, how
[00:02:18] Michael: it was 13,000 something rows, which
[00:02:22] Jeffrey: Yeah,
[00:02:23] Michael: not as bad as it sounds.
[00:02:24] Michael: 'cause with Wix, the platform I use for the website, you can just export your entire existing store catalog and then make your changes and re-upload it. So really it's. I've gotta split it into about six files and I just update the top row and then copy paste into the rest. But man, it's still tedious in the, uh, the nerves of making a mistake.
[00:02:44] Michael: Totally screwing up your catalog. I always create a, a master backup just in case, so that's done. I've got, uh, no more canvas on the site. metal in, go along the acrylic and the artist series, so that's a, that's a big project off my list. than that, I'm trying to think if I really, I don't think I've really done anything.
[00:03:00] Michael: Allison, again, kind of the, uh, the point at which we're recording this episode today. I gotta get my, natural Landscape Awards submissions and because of course, just like every other year I've entered the competition, I have to do it on the last day or second last day. So even started looking at, uh, my possible entries.
[00:03:18] Michael: Are you entering that one?
[00:03:19] Jeffrey: I, so I paid for their early entry fee, but I am not sure I'm gonna be able to pull
[00:03:24] Michael: Yeah.
[00:03:24] Jeffrey: images for it. So I'm, I'm just, I'm trying to weigh the, the balance of time. Where should my time go? And I, I'm, I may not make it in this year, but I'm happy to support the contest 'cause I do think it's one of the better ones out there.
[00:03:37] Michael: Yeah.
[00:03:38] Jeffrey: not a hundred percent sure I'm gonna get something in.
[00:03:40] Michael: Part of me was kind of feeling the same way. Like what it really like, I think I did, is it 12 entries for 60 something bucks?
[00:03:47] Jeffrey: yep, that sounds about
[00:03:49] Michael: you know, sunk cost fallacy of the time to figure out what I'm gonna pick and enter. Worth making myself maybe more stressed on preparing for the podcast. But I think we'll be okay.
[00:03:59] Michael: I think we'll be okay. I think we're, I think we're in a good spot right now in terms of podcast prep, YouTube channel's done, Patreon's done. I set up some community chats on the Patreon yesterday so that once we're live and hopefully getting some participation there, uh, will be good for just like general conversation, general feedback in addition to the episode post themselves.
[00:04:18] Michael: So I think we're good there and, and you know, kudos to, we're not even live yet officially, and we've already got a few paying members and some free members on there, which just blows my mind. As I jokingly said to you yesterday, if the podcast ends up with more pain members before it's even live compared to what I've got on my photography Patreon, I'm gonna be a little, I'm gonna be a little hurt man,
[00:04:38] Jeffrey: Yeah, it's a little weird working on two things, right?
[00:04:40] Michael: yeah.
[00:04:41] Jeffrey: the, our normal individual photography channels and creative content that we put out as individuals. And then sort of watching how the collaboration like you said, the Patreon uptake, just a little general buzz. It's, it's just a real interesting dynamic, how it's, it'll be interesting to see how it goes.
[00:04:56] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I've been, I don't know if I'm surprised, but I've been very pleased with the response we've had so far as we start teasing it and, you know, sharing the, the graphics that Heather and my fiance came up with for the,
[00:05:09] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:05:09] Michael: the theme and the Brandon and everything. So I think the, uh, the response overall has been really positive so far.
[00:05:14] Michael: Granted only, I only know of one person that's listened to an episode. We shared it out with a few, uh, other of our peers to give an early listen to and hopefully get some testimonials. But so far from Matt Payne, we've gotten the thumbs up. So, um, although he did say his,
[00:05:27] Jeffrey: one that listened to
[00:05:28] Michael: Yeah, he listened to it this morning. Uh, he did say his lawyer's gonna be reaching out to us though about my usage of shifting gears in episode one. So,
[00:05:35] Jeffrey: I, when I was spot checking audio levels yesterday, you know, as we were working through that was one of the pieces I heard was the whole shifting gears part and I just had to laugh about that. So
[00:05:45] Michael: I mean, technically I gave him credit, so no lawyer, but to me that's fair use. So we're gonna, we're gonna go with that. So,
[00:05:51] Jeffrey: For
[00:05:52] Michael: anyways, yeah, the podcast has pretty much been like 99% of everything I've been working on. I can't think of anything else. I'm still waiting on the, um, the boxes for my collector's box sets.
[00:06:03] Michael: So I thought I'd have 'em by now, but still waiting on those, they're still in production, not quite sure why they're taking a little bit longer, but anxious to get those. And then getting ready for my June 1st email. And I think, um, unfortunately, I don't think I'll have pre-reads open on the box set just yet, I don't have the boxes in hand.
[00:06:19] Michael: And June 1st is in two days. So.
[00:06:22] Jeffrey: Yeah, it's, yeah,
[00:06:23] Michael: Something like that. Yeah. So but it, that's, uh, you know, is what it is. yeah. Other than that, so I'd say, let's just kind of start, I'm not gonna say shifting gears. Let's, let's pivot into the, uh, the heart of today's episode, which was kind of, we've, we've touched on it a little bit, at least.
[00:06:41] Michael: I know I have, at least one of the prior episodes about that shift. A lot of photographers go through from starting out and then getting a little bit further into their photography journey. Nature photographer, specifically going from photographing almost exclusively the big grand Vista scenes. And then shifting over time into the smaller and smaller scenes.
[00:07:01] Michael: And again, we've talked about like my shift into finding my love of a tree photography and that I, think just kind of kicking it off, you know, I was refreshing myself on a lot of your work, which again, I think you do yourself a disservice in terms of the quality of your work. Man, I was looking at your, your gallery page, you on your website, and you've got some beautiful images on there.
[00:07:21] Michael: But, um,
[00:07:22] Jeffrey: that.
[00:07:22] Michael: the one thing that stood out to me is you've got some small scene stuff on there, and you've got some. More traditional Grand Vista, you know, big scene. But I feel like you kind of fall in between where you're, you're like medium, medium scene.
[00:07:38] Jeffrey: yeah, for sure. I, I, I feel that, and I, I feel like a lot of it is 'cause I feel like I'm still in my path to the small scenes. I feel like in my progression as a, a nature photographer, I've started moving past this, the, the, the grand scenes all the time towards those smaller scenes. But I'm still finding my way to that.
[00:07:57] Jeffrey: And it, I don't think it's always easy, at least for me to see them. I feel like I'm still one of those photographers that walks by amazing scenes, those amazing small scenes all the time. Um, but I definitely. Feel like it's the natural progression of a nature photographer to go from these, those large grand scenes that for some reason when you come either to landscape photography, that's just where you start, right?
[00:08:20] Jeffrey: Like it's not uncommon. That's just, that's where you go. But I think over time I've come to see and appreciate those small scenes more, but in my path, I am still trying to more easily recognize those and create those images well. Uh, and I think that's probably why, that's where I am in my journey. I'm sort of in this middle of, I've, okay, I'm not full greens grand scene, but I don't have these super small.
[00:08:45] Jeffrey: So that's why I think at the moment falling right into that middle zone of, of where my work is at.
[00:08:51] Michael: Yeah. Yeah, and, and just listening to you talk and thinking through my own work, like I don't know that I can legitimately say I'm primarily small scenes these days because I'm not like a Sarah Marino, where I'm taking a lot of really, really, almost macro level shots. of, you know, truly, truly small little minuscule details of the landscape.
[00:09:12] Michael: You know, I'm still shooting for the most part, like I'm including entire tree or most of the tree. So it's not like it's on a macro of, uh, photography. From my standpoint, I think it's, it's quote unquote smaller field of view compared to like a lot of what I saw on your website. But I guess it would be a little disingenuous to compare myself to like Sarah.
[00:09:35] Michael: Now, of course, I'm drawing a blank on who the heck else does small scene photography like her, but, you know, hers stands out 'cause it's so great. maybe Ann Belmont would be another one. of course my mind goes who, are other photographers? But anyways, you know, the, there's, there's varying degrees of it, of course, and, and you know, frankly, when I've tried to.
[00:09:56] Michael: C and photograph stuff like a Sarah Marino does. I really, really struggle with that stuff. And for me personally, like I, I love looking at it, her work and others that do that type of work. It's, it's beautiful and it my mind how they can that way as well as edit in such a manner that doesn't feel heavy handed.
[00:10:16] Michael: But oftentimes I think there is a fair amount of editing that goes into some of those, not everybody, but whereas when I've tried it, it feels very clumsy in terms of the composition
[00:10:25] Jeffrey: It
[00:10:26] Michael: as well as the editing. I just, I really, really struggle with it. And I'm at a point now where I'm like, you know, that's, that's okay.
[00:10:34] Michael: Like, I, I, I think it's, it's kinda like street photography. I enjoy looking at Great Street, street photography. zero desire to do it myself, partly because I'm such an introvert. I would be just. I'm of, of, you know, quote unquote putting myself out there like that. Right? Yeah, exactly. Having that one person come after me 'cause I took their photo.
[00:10:53] Michael: but also I just, as we've talked before, like photography for me is my form of mindfulness and escape. I don't feel like I could get that in a cityscape environment. So why would I pursue that? Maybe I would end up joining it, but right now at least it's nothing I have any desire to do. And that's kind of where I've landed on that, that, you know, small, small scene photography I'm happy with and I get a lot of joy and, and, and pleasure.
[00:11:19] Michael: Out of that kind of small plus, however you wanna frame it, type of photography that I'm, I'm, I'm honed in on lately, but I'm curious, you know, you say you feel like you're your journey from the bigger grander photography, you're kind of like this middle area on your way to smaller scene. Do you feel.
[00:11:40] Michael: Compelled to move in that path? Or I guess what's driving that shift from grand to small?
[00:11:47] Jeffrey: I think a lot of it comes down to, and the, the way I I think of it is when you're first starting out, just the, the grand scene is, it, it's big. It's what catches your attention. you're out there longer and photographing more, I, my belief is you start to become more in tune with nature. So when you're first headed out. It's this big scene, it's the, the big vistas. It's the, the whole waterfall scene and, and the whole bit. But I feel like as you're out there, you get more in tune with nature and that's when you start to notice these smaller things, whether they be the mid-size scene with I'm sort of gravitating into now, or the smaller scenes that others see.
[00:12:25] Jeffrey: And I feel like that's part of the evolution. Like right now I've gone from, I notice those mid-size scenes
[00:12:30] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:31] Jeffrey: And I think at some point I'll see the, the small scenes, uh, more. And I don't think it's a forced thing, but I understand where you're coming from. There's some people that can do small scenes really good.
[00:12:41] Jeffrey: Right? And it's like I have hundreds of small scene photos in my Lightroom catalog that are just. Uh, what is this? Like? You can tell I haven't pieced it together,
[00:12:51] Michael: Right.
[00:12:52] Jeffrey: Um, so I'm not there. I enjoy it and I appreciate it. I'm probably more in the, I can appreciate it phase more than execute on it phase, but essentially, long way of saying, I think that the reason this evolution happens is because I'm more in tune with nature.
[00:13:06] Jeffrey: So I can now see these things more. And I feel like the longer I'm out there, I will start to see these smaller scenes even more, uh, as I go. But, it's a challenge. I think shifting, shifting your, creative vision from big to, to
[00:13:20] Michael: Right, but not shifting gears. Never, never ever will we shift gears again.
[00:13:24] Jeffrey: vision. We'll trademark that one and,
[00:13:26] Michael: Right? Yeah. I think it's interesting. There's been on the landscape photographer discord that we're in, like there's been debates about this quote unquote trend and, and I say quote unquote, or air quotes, whatever, around the word trend because I, I think there's a.
[00:13:42] Michael: Pretty broad consensus that it has been a recent trend.
[00:13:45] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:46] Michael: I'm kind of wondering too, like that group of photographers on there, we're all relatively in age and where we're at in our progression and everything. So I'm wondering if it's less a trend and more just all seeing that natural progression our contemporary peer group as opposed to the previous generation of photographers or, you know, however you wanna frame it.
[00:14:12] Michael: Are we all just kind of like in that same and journey and, and kind of in that same point, and I, morbid way of putting it, I guess would be.
[00:14:21] Jeffrey: Hmm.
[00:14:22] Michael: Heather and I, you know, a couple, yeah. Two years ago, just a little over two years ago, we, we lost our dog, Lucy. For me, that was the first pet I lost. That was my pet as an adult.
[00:14:33] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:33] Michael: and suddenly it was like all of my friends on Facebook. It was the same thing. Like, it just felt like every week there was another friend posting about losing a pet. And I, I had that realization like, well, it's not because like there's some weird, you know, like evil in the universe. We're gonna take everybody's pets.
[00:14:48] Michael: It's just, we're all in that same
[00:14:49] Jeffrey: Same.
[00:14:50] Michael: of our life progression and that we're all about the same age. We all got our first pets around the same age. And unfortunately now we're at that point where, where we're losing. It's a really morbid, uh, analogy. But
[00:15:00] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:15:00] Michael: I, I think it's similar just in a less depressing manner.
[00:15:04] Michael: Uh, potentially similar in, in regards to why they, we, why do we feel like there's this training? 'cause there's also plenty of photographers that haven't really. Made that shift. And like I know Nick Page has been outspoken about like, he's got zero interest in smaller scene photography. He loves the Grand Lake scapes and Grand Seascapes and stuff like that.
[00:15:23] Michael: And I think that's important too, is each of us being able to recognize what do we really enjoy and, you know, do we want to go if we want to go anywhere beyond where we're at right now. And like I said, I think that's where I'm, at a pretty good comfort level in terms of, I truly appreciate the, the truly small scene photographers out there, but I don't think it's anything at this point that I see myself pursuing.
[00:15:49] Michael: you know, I'm not saying I'd never take a shot like wise, um,
[00:15:54] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:15:54] Michael: you know, if I find something and it works, it works. But I can't picture myself just seeking out that kind of stuff. I.
[00:16:02] Jeffrey: Yeah. And I think to that point, it's important to, to go with your passion, right? To me, it's almost like it's a tool in the toolbox as to like, you know, the grand scenes is one thing. I know how to photograph those. I'm getting better at those medium sized scenes. And then if I can learn to photograph those small scenes, it's an option when I'm somewhere to photograph or something like that.
[00:16:21] Jeffrey: But to your point about the passion, like is probably one of the most cliche things to photograph as a nature photographer, right? And I make zero apologies for how many times I enjoy going to a waterfall to photograph it, because to me that I love waterfalls and the experience. So I definitely be true to yourself.
[00:16:40] Jeffrey: I, for me, the small scenes is an evolution of. Just another tool, another way to be creative. And as the mind opens up to do it, I don't see myself moving into, people are gonna look at my Instagram feed or my website gallery and go, wow. Jeffrey's a small scenes photographer. He's made it. as much as hopefully at some point people would be like, you can photograph an interesting scene.
[00:17:01] Jeffrey: Maybe it was a perfect opportunity that opened up, and I'm still not a natural at finding them. But, but yeah, I think it's important, be uh, true to yourself, what you like to photograph. If you love grand scenes and that's your jam, then, you know, embrace it and, and lean into it. But I do enjoy dabbling and because I just feel like it pays off overall to my creative eye, even when I'm at the, the grand landscape or anywhere, just to be more in tune with nature, I think it works out positively.
[00:17:28] Michael: Yeah, and I think your points about becoming more in tune with nature. To me that's probably the biggest piece that's driven my shift is,
[00:17:35] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:36] Michael: talked about it with our clients on the Smoky Mountains workshop of, you know, the natural inclination of anybody, whether you're tourist with just your phone or, you know, an inspiring photographer, is you show up at a scene and the big obvious thing is what catches your eye.
[00:17:51] Michael: So that's what you're gonna photograph. But as you become more in tune with your surroundings and learning to look and see with that kind of more creative slash photographer vision, think you just naturally begin to pick out those smaller details that
[00:18:04] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:18:05] Michael: the average person is going to walk right by and never see.
[00:18:09] Michael: That's one thing I have to find a balance for when I'm, when I'm out somewhere, especially somewhere new, is I'm looking, you know, I've referred to it as my 500 millimeter vision. I'm looking like off in the distance and, you know, oh, is there a craggy tree on that cliff side over there? Or, you know, whatever.
[00:18:27] Michael: I'm, I'm just, I'm looking for those small scenes further away and sometimes I know I'm walking by things that are closer to me, so I have to consciously like, Hey, don't, don't focus so far out that you're missing a, the experience of being in the beautiful location you're being, or that you're in, and b, I.
[00:18:45] Michael: I don't get so locked into that 500 millimeter vision that I'm walking right by something that's, you know, maybe 24 millimeter opportunity. And I'm, I'm definitely better about that. But I, I do still fall into that trap a little bit where I almost overlook the, the obvious stuff for the, for the benefit of the less obvious stuff, which sounds counterintuitive, but, you know, rolling up to the location like, oh yeah, that view's amazing.
[00:19:12] Michael: Now what can I find besides that? And again, I think we touched on it. It was either in the kind of q and a getting to know US episode or one of the others, but over the last year and a half, two years, I've been working to step back to photographing some of the wider scenes again, uh, as opposed to just simply, here's a tree, or, you know, an interesting branch or rocks and water or, you know, what have you, which makes my photography sound really boring.
[00:19:39] Michael: It's not that boring if you haven't seen it, I swear. Um. Yeah, trying to again, show off the place versus just the place's soul as we've talked before, helping the viewer that hasn't been there get a better sense of what it's like to be in that location and experience it and, you know, see it from out or see it from, I guess like 30,000 feet down to 20 feet and getting the full take of what, you know, what the full envelopment or how do I phrase this?
[00:20:10] Michael: What it's like to be fully enveloped in that environment and learning to appreciate it, kind of stepping through it that way.
[00:20:17] Jeffrey: Yep. Yeah, it's a good way. It can be a good way to build a project or a, or, or a collection of images too, right? You got the small pieces, parts, and then you got the slightly larger views
[00:20:26] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:27] Jeffrey: environmental view of it and tie it like all together into something. Uh, with context and, and pieces.
[00:20:33] Jeffrey: And parts.
[00:20:34] Michael: And when I'm, when I'm sharing the work or when I'm putting it up on my website, I try to, I. I have a collection I'm releasing that's got a pretty good blend of wider and, and smaller scene photography, I try to pop in I try to have some relevance in terms of when I'm sharing the wider scene and amongst the smaller scenes, like, oh, hey, by the way, this is where I was, you know, you've seen all the little bits of details of the place is sold, but now here's the broader view of it.
[00:21:00] Jeffrey: Proud review.
[00:21:01] Michael: But also like throwing it in kinda like a, almost a jarring juxtaposition. You know, not worrying about, oh, does all this flow naturally from small scene to small scene, but like, Hey, here's a really tight shot of this amazing tree structure, whatever, and then boom, here's this, you know, wide mountain vista view or, or what have you, just to kind of
[00:21:20] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:21:21] Michael: the viewer surprised and kind of guessing as to, to maybe what's coming next in the collection, but tied to that too, I'm curious in your own experience and observations, I know I get a.
[00:21:35] Michael: They usually get a pretty different reaction on social media of the broad views versus those smaller, more intimate scenes.
[00:21:44] Jeffrey: for
[00:21:45] Michael: What, what do you see with that?
[00:21:47] Jeffrey: Yeah. So yeah, if you think, if you take the social media and it's a hard life, I think, as a small scenes photographer, right? Uh, I at least I think it is because at least I know when I post work, if I post a. Grand Vista or Nice of sunrise, sunset, oh, you get all sorts of people that l love it, appreciate it. And I've got some, uh, photos from Dream Lake when it was frozen, when I was there in January that are very small abstract, which I, I really like. I I, I enjoy them and I think they do resonate well with people that appreciate them, but they do not pull in the, or the comments that some of those grand scenes were.
[00:22:25] Jeffrey: Uh, which, you know, I, I guess it makes sense. I, that level of appreciation. I think it's pro the viewers so I guess is a, it's maybe not for the lay person on the internet, but yeah, for sure. I think that traditional grand scene, big bold compared to those subtle small scenes, definitely get different reactions to social media, from that standpoint.
[00:22:48] Michael: Yeah. And for the most part I would agree. I, I do feel like, and I've noticed this recently with my own work, I've been sharing to me it seems to be more driven about bold colors of late, as opposed to scope of scene, like starting out.
[00:23:02] Michael: It was very much Grand Vistas would rule the day. Or, you know, God forbid I shared a black and white photo especially, but of late, and maybe it's a shift in the algorithm, or again, maybe it's just
[00:23:15] Michael: The viewer's eyes shifting with time. You know, the viewers advancing kinda that same progression slash journey that, that the photographers are.
[00:23:24] Michael: I've noticed that it's my images that maybe they're a very small scene, but they've got really bold pop of color. And that's always been, you know, of course it's eye catching. It gets somebody to stop scrolling. I've really seen a pronounced difference there. And actually some of my bigger scenes that I would've expected, I.
[00:23:40] Michael: Not that I care too much, but I would've expected to do better, haven't done phenomenally well, like they have in the past. So you know, is that an algorithm shift again that we're being swept up in? Or is it again, kinda that viewer progression? Or is it just everybody's so exhausted by social media that it takes that big, bold pop of something to really get them to kind of pause for a second to at least double tap, as opposed to just continuing to scroll on?
[00:24:05] Jeffrey: Yeah, that's an interesting observation. I'm gonna have to pay closer attention to that, that a small scene with bold color can still do, do well. I have to, that's, that's interesting. And I can see that
[00:24:15] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:16] Jeffrey: thinking about my own social media consumption as I, as I scroll through and look at various scenes, and I can definitely feels like I, whether it be a grand scene with bold or a small scene, that that might be sort of what triggers me.
[00:24:28] Jeffrey: So that's, uh. I'm gonna have to pay more attention to that. 'cause I think that could be true.
[00:24:33] Michael: Yeah. I, I relate it to kind of the, like it used to be, you had to have a. sky man, the sky is fire or lit or you know, 100 or whatever the,
[00:24:42] Jeffrey: right.
[00:24:43] Michael: Instagram trope was back in the day. But it was still like you had that bold color because of the sunrise or the sunset colors. And it's almost like it's just shifted to now it's just bold color.
[00:24:54] Michael: Like what can we, what can we not, not, I'm not saying I would do this, but like what can we do to grab that attention of somebody scrolling? Because I know, I think so many people and, and you know, I certainly can speak for myself in that I am feeling pretty burned out on social media.
[00:25:10] Jeffrey: Oh,
[00:25:10] Michael: You know, even on Instagram you're getting a lot of the political stuff in that and like, I get it.
[00:25:15] Michael: It's important to have those conversations, but also, man, I just wanna reprieve and so I find myself going on social media and I am almost doing that mindless scroll through my. people I follow their post and it's taking something truly extraordinary to get me to like stop, because otherwise I'm almost like, I don't wanna look too close because that suggested post is gonna pop up.
[00:25:38] Michael: That's distracting me. Or It's just I've noticed a different tendency of my own in terms of how I'm approaching it like I'm seeing a lot of amazing work. But it's got to be something really truly like extraordinary for, for it to really grab me. And maybe that's again, because we're all, if my theory is even remotely correct, that we're all kind of that same point in our journey in terms of contemporaries.
[00:26:04] Michael: maybe there's a little bit of sameness at play in that there's so many woodland photographers and small scene photographers that now you almost have to have. Whereas before it used to be everybody was sharing the grand vistas and you had to have the amazing sunrise or sunset to get noticed.
[00:26:21] Michael: Now it's, it's smaller scenes that are. through our, our feeds, but you need that bull pop of color in those to
[00:26:28] Jeffrey: Yep,
[00:26:28] Michael: attention and have it stand out. I don't know, I, I'm, could be entirely talking outta my rear end, but,
[00:26:33] Jeffrey: I think there's some of that to it. And then as, just as consumers, just like as photographers, we get more in tune with nature and, and pieces and parts as consumers of photography as we consume. Like, I dunno about you, but when I first started scrolling through Instagram years and years ago, it's like I didn't understand necessarily what made a good picture.
[00:26:51] Jeffrey: Like, oh, that's, that's heavily edited that just, and, and gives you that, that hit of boldness. But I feel like as we consume more photography, our tastes probably also like we've seen
[00:27:03] Michael: mm-hmm.
[00:27:03] Jeffrey: some Yeah, I've seen that done. Or you know, for me, you know, when we do the workshops, we go to some iconic locations, it's like, I've probably seen some of these photos. Hundreds of times and with a good chunk of them, pretty well done too. So, you know, I think we probably, as consumers of photography, we become more discerning with what we think is good because we were probably writing off a fair amount as Yeah, that's okay. But I know how you did it or I've been there.
[00:27:31] Jeffrey: Okay. It wasn't, you know, I've seen that before. Uh, which also plays into it, which ties into where we are in that river of our progression. We probably have a lot of the same peers, a lot of the same friends online, a lot of the same groups all within a cluster of three to five years of probably either or, or experience or just general skill level.
[00:27:53] Jeffrey: So we, we shift what we would've impressed us 10 years ago is completely different than what impresses us today and probably will be completely different than what impresses us in another three, five years, uh, and so on. So there's probably a lot of elements at play. I think it's an interesting observation.
[00:28:09] Michael: Yeah, and I, I think also you mentioned the icons and rolling up to those locations. I know a lot of photographers, again, seemingly turn their noses up at photographing the icons or the wide views. And, and on one hand, like, I get it, if you personally don't want to do it, I have no problem going up to an overlook and appreciating it for what it is and wanting to get my photo of it.
[00:28:31] Michael: Yeah. Maybe it's not the best photo of it, but it's my photo of it. And I, you know, that's where I think especially your hobbyist and amateur photographers, that's their viewpoint on it too. Like, I don't care if it's crowded, you know, I, that I've always seen these amazing photos. I want to have my photo of it.
[00:28:44] Michael: And that's, I think, perfectly acceptable. But seen plenty of debate in that regard too. Like, oh, why are you just doing that? You're just posted stamp collecting, or, you know.
[00:28:52] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:28:53] Michael: Putting your tripod in the holes of the person that came before you. And it's like, yeah, but still there is something to be said for.
[00:28:59] Michael: Well, I mean, what it was the argument, like the icons are icon for a reason, so why, yes, I don't like with the crowds and, you know, all that stuff. But still, like, if I've got the opportunity to go to an icon and experience it for myself, like, why wouldn't I do that? And if I'm there, like, of course I'm gonna take the photo of it.
[00:29:19] Michael: so I, I think again, I feel like I've, I'm seeing more acceptance of both approaches. I don't feel like I see, feel like there used to be quite a bit of vitriol against the icons and, and the wider photos. And even I used to say like, well, you know, I, I don't want to take a photo where anybody else could roll up, stand next to me with their cell phone and almost replicate the photo.
[00:29:42] Michael: Why would I do that? But. Now, again, going back to what I've, I've said in a previous episode is like, but I do feel I got too far away from showing the places I was visiting versus just showing their souls. And like if I take a photo or exclusively photos of small scenes, I guess on one hand it's a plus that hey, those could be taken anywhere.
[00:30:06] Michael: They could be taken 10 minutes from home as opposed to having to go travel somewhere. But on the negative side, I'm now creating a collection of work that, doesn't tell the full story of what I've seen and witnessed, experienced, and felt in the broader sense of that environment.
[00:30:22] Jeffrey: Right. Yeah,
[00:30:23] Michael: So shifting back to the, the smaller scene photographer, I think one thing too that comes with the natural of one's skills and one's creative vision and eye for the natural world is that a small scene doesn't necessarily have to have dramatic light on it a dramatic or an impactful photo.
[00:30:46] Michael: And again, going back to the workshop and, and you know, especially when we're at the overlooks and maybe we were waiting for the light or whatever, and the attendees, a lot of them were so locked in on what the sky was doing. And it's like, well, don't forget that. Yeah, it's a, it's a hillside of, you know, green spring foliage in front of us, but look at all the different textures and there's different shades of green that are creating contrast.
[00:31:09] Michael: So, know, I think the. Early on in one's journey, the inclination is to think about contrast. Very one dimensionally. It's, it's all about the light. The light, the light, the light. The light and the
[00:31:20] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:21] Michael: can certainly be important, but you can also make compelling photos without the light.
[00:31:25] Michael: And that contrast again in the sense of color, contrast, contrast, shape, contrast, you know, the contrast of intersecting lines between, you know, within the landscape or whatever. And again, I think that comes with experience, but it's, it's teaching oneself to step back from that. Okay, there's the obvious thing.
[00:31:47] Michael: So now I'm just going to see what the sky does and if the sky doesn't do anything, I'm going to step away and, and walk home. Disappointed or bummed out. But
[00:31:55] Jeffrey: right.
[00:31:56] Michael: been missing all of the, the really great detail or little pockets of lighting of the landscape that wasn't as obvious. So again, I think it goes back to.
[00:32:04] Michael: What you said early on, it's gaining that appreciation for nature beyond just what's the obvious
[00:32:09] Jeffrey: Yep. mean, I, I mentioned the tools earlier, how I considered it. You know, I had different tools in my toolbox, and I think you're hitting right on that point right there. It that being able to photograph more than just grand scenes, if I don't get that amazing color in the sky or it's too overcast, I, I, I have other options to photograph at that spot, either directly from that overlook by using a, a telephoto lens or maybe just walking a hundred yards back and looking for something in the shade. my last West Virginia workshop last fall, uh, we literally had zero clouds for that whole workshop. None. And there are a couple, we do some sunrises, sunsets, and it was pretty much a running joke that, yeah, there is
[00:32:49] Michael: I.
[00:32:49] Jeffrey: a single cloud. so we'd go to these, these overlooks, one of 'em called, is called Lindy Point, sunset Spot, and. Blue sky it. You knew we weren't going to get anything. And that's where it's like, Hey, I get it. But take a look around, look at what the light's doing on the ridges. Look off to your left. Look off to your right. Look, once we get in the blue hour, what happens to, to the hillside? So I get it, we're, we're not gonna get that amazing sunset image with a colorful sky, but the light is still doing interesting things.
[00:33:18] Jeffrey: It was fall, so we had, you know, fall colors down in the valley below. and it, it was very much a, a chance to hopefully help and show don't get locked in. Use these other tools. And that's where those small scenes, I think just become so great is because it can turn a trip. That would've been utterly Disappointing. 'cause I didn't get that amazing shot. And I'm only here once into, I've walked away with some images I really like on those blue sky, days just because, okay. Sky's not gonna do it. Let me look over this way, look over that way, get the telephoto out, and I walk away with some images that I really like how the light plays across, uh, the ridges as the sun goes down and things like that.
[00:33:55] Jeffrey: So, yeah, I think it, it's a great point, that the small scenes is a, it can be a tool and give you flexibility to, to have a potential to walk away from any outing with something that is interesting, even when the atmosphere and environment don't necessarily cooperate.
[00:34:10] Michael: Yeah, and that goes back to, my, my own progression of it gets very easy to, I. not only get frustrated when you don't have those epic conditions, the amazing light, the clouds in the sky, you know, storm clouds rolling in, whatever. But also, I think, I don't want to across as I'm putting down those that do enjoy primarily the, the grand landscapes or chasing conditions.
[00:34:36] Michael: Well, that, that's part of it too, is like we've talked, I am, I consider myself a reactive photographer. I go out and I just see what I see in my viewpoint, to create something truly special in terms of a grander view, or again, looking at Nick Page, like he doesn't go out and photograph blue sky conditions,
[00:34:53] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:34:53] Michael: ever.
[00:34:54] Michael: Um, but he is
[00:34:56] Jeffrey: posting them.
[00:34:57] Michael: right, he's putting in the work otherwise to chase the conditions. And I think that's partly what he likes is that chase and the planning that goes into it. Whereas don't wanna do planning. It's like the first episode of this podcast, like, ah, screw it.
[00:35:11] Michael: We'll just do it live. We'll figure it out.
[00:35:12] Jeffrey: Right?
[00:35:13] Michael: I don't want to spend hours and hours and hours planning and tracking, you know, weather beyond just like a quick check to see, okay, what's it doing? You know, what might I expect? So on and so forth. But I think for me, it was not just the frustration of not getting the epic conditions and losing excitement the joy of photography, because we don't, our expectations aren't gonna be met more often than not.
[00:35:38] Michael: But also, like, let's use my, my local park as an example. And you're, I think in a pretty similar situation of, been to that park dozens and dozens of times at this point, it does not have a grand view within that park, really.
[00:35:55] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:35:55] Michael: the most I can get is shoot at like 24 mil and you know, if it's a foggy morning or something, and then, you know, kind of get a meadow view or something.
[00:36:03] Michael: Like, there's a, there's an overlook. Uh, looks out over the lake, which is really a reservoir. And you know, it's surrounded by houses. So I was just shooting those grand reviews, I would've tapped out on that park a decade ago,
[00:36:18] Jeffrey: right.
[00:36:19] Michael: opposed to, you know, how many times am I gonna go up and take the same photo?
[00:36:23] Michael: if the conditions are different to me, it's gonna get very boring very quickly. And again, I may not, I may be getting good conditions, but it's still kind of derivative at some point, as opposed to being able to go in the park and just wander and see what I can see. Like, it sounds maybe, egotistical or, or not very humble, but like, I am surprised by how many photos I've got from that local park that I am really, really happy with, that I feel are unique and creative.
[00:36:55] Michael: And almost every time I go there, I'm coming away with something I never noticed before. the, you know. Nature changes over time too. So there's that factor, but being that they're taking that reactive approach and working with those smaller scenes, your possibilities are so much greater than just to a location and shooting the iconic shot or the overlook shot.
[00:37:19] Michael: The wide shot, and like, okay, well I've done that like three different times now. What's the excitement of going back and doing that same thing again opposed to, I'm always excited to go in and see what might catch my eye today.
[00:37:34] Jeffrey: That makes total sense. And that that's sort of how I treat my local metro parks. Very similar, not really overlooks per se. And if you photograph the, you know, you can only photograph the same foggy meadow so many times as a wider scene. Now that fog could shift in on those smaller scenes play out really well for it.
[00:37:53] Jeffrey: And I'm same, I probably visited my local metro park, I, who knows how many times. But, uh, it's because they stay interesting because I just take different trails. I walk them in a different direction. I take a different lens maybe, or, or anything like that. You know, you rain, snow fog in a different spot that it just starts to add up with such a wide combination of potential images when you approach it that way, that it maintains is interest much longer than if you just stuck a 24 millimeter on and, well, I hope it's foggy this morning for the for the 10th time or something like that.
[00:38:27] Jeffrey: So.
[00:38:27] Michael: Yeah. I think if, if you wanted to be primarily a. A grand scene photographer, a wide view photographer. putting yourself into a commitment of having to seek out opportunities in terms of traveling more, going further afield from home and so on and so forth. Because again, you're gonna tap out, I think, pretty quickly, and I, I'm guessing that that's what drives this kind of natural progression we see with so many nature photographers is you're just photographing the same composition essentially over and over, why keep doing it?
[00:39:05] Michael: You're gonna just burn yourself out on it, or it's gonna feel or no longer inspire you, you know, what have you.
[00:39:12] Jeffrey: All right, so let's say you're listening to this podcast and you're predominantly a grand scenes photographer, but you're like, you know, I'm, I'm like, what I'm hearing, I'm, I, I, I'm hearing it could give me more flexibility, you know, how would you recommend someone try to shift their, I've already admitted I struggle with that shift, and, and I don't think it's an overnight shift per se. but do you have any tips or, or tricks that you would recommend to somebody to try to shift their way of thinking from a grand scene? Like what could they practice? Is there some technique or some way to shift that creative vision that you might recommend to somebody trying to, to appreciate those scenes and be in tune with those scenes?
[00:39:52] Michael: I feel like it's, at least for me, it's a difficult concept to teach. 'cause for me, I feel like it came relatively through intuition. I. Um, but I think also, like if I were to give advice and, and this was something that I did talk to at least one of the clients about in, in the Smokey's workshop, like part of it is just that time to be still and observe and be curious and inquisitive to, okay, again, here's, here's the obvious, here's the beautiful cascade with rhododendron that should have been blooming, but more, um,
[00:40:32] Jeffrey: Well, you know, they probably are. Now I
[00:40:34] Michael: they probably are now,
[00:40:35] Jeffrey: check.
[00:40:36] Michael: I only, I only said that about a hundred times on that trip.
[00:40:38] Michael: Uh, but anyways, here's, here's the obvious thing. Whether it's a vista or, you know, obvious waterfall, but yourself to reflect upon your surroundings and, starting out, you, you're gonna have to do it consciously. Just like I was saying, like if I'm looking for. A small scene ala Sarah Marino.
[00:40:58] Michael: I'm gonna have to consciously look for that as opposed to it just kind of jumping out at me more intuitively or, or naturally what have you. So you've gotta consciously sit there and say, okay, well I'm at this waterfall view, beautiful waterfall. I'm gonna photograph it because it's an amazing scene.
[00:41:17] Michael: But what else can I find here?
[00:41:19] Jeffrey: Right?
[00:41:20] Michael: again, it kind of goes back to working with that one client that was shooting with this 100, 400 and, and Cade's Cove, and him being so excited because he's able to be in that three to 400 millimeter range
[00:41:35] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:36] Michael: without even having to move around much. It's, ooh, there's a composition.
[00:41:40] Michael: There's a composition. There's a composition. Because you're, you're to see in that 200, 300 millimeter, 400 millimeter vision, of vision, whatever you wanna call it. It just do the act of practicing it. And it might mean that you've just gotta grab your camera outta the bag and hey, I am gonna zoom into 300 mil and
[00:41:59] Jeffrey: Yep,
[00:41:59] Michael: around and, and see if anything jumps out at me.
[00:42:01] Michael: I'm gonna zoom into 400 and do the same. I don't think it's a passive skillset or progression. I think it's something you've gotta be actively engaged in and, and seeking out those opportunities. And over time you'll just start to recognize it. Again, I can roll up to a location and, and if anything, as I said, I'm, my pendulum is swung a little bit too far the other way to where I almost overlook the obvious and it's, Ooh, look at that tree way off in the distance there.
[00:42:31] Michael: I'm gonna immediately photograph that and that's fine. But you know, it's, to me, I want that balance as well. Somebody else may not. That's just where I'm at currently in my journey, but I.
[00:42:40] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:42:40] Michael: I just, I really think it's, it's gotta be something you're an active participant in trying to develop that eye, trying to develop that skill terms of seeing the world around you differently and asking that question of what else is there from this spot?
[00:42:56] Michael: Or, well, okay, I don't say here but lemme go over to that little hill or ridge or, you know, whatever
[00:43:03] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:43:04] Michael: see if there's anything there. And again, maybe you gotta pull out the camera initially and, and, you know, pan around to, to see in that mode. over time, just like with anything, you'll get better and better at it and you won't need that, that
[00:43:18] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:43:19] Michael: technical aid learn to see that way.
[00:43:22] Jeffrey: Yeah, I agree. I I think it's a, I liked how you said it was a conscious sort of approach, right? It, it doesn't necessarily magically just happen. it's gotta be a conscious effort. I know one of the things I did, uh, early on, I, we all know I like to photograph Hocking Hills, which traditionally shoots better like a mid-range, like a 24 to one 20 in Hocking Hills.
[00:43:40] Jeffrey: We'll cover you for a, a good chunk of things, but I'll do what I call a one lens challenge. And when I was trying to learn the 100 to 400 millimeter length, 'cause it was not, it didn't come natural to me, that focal length, that for a long time I had the lens and like, I don't even wanna put it in a bag 'cause it's heavy and I, I don't see much. But I would go to Hawking Hills with only the 100 to 400. I would leave all my other lenses at home. And go down and go to familiar places. I've been to dozens of times, but because I only had the 100 to 400, it's sort of what, like you said, sometimes you just have to pan that camera around with a lens on it, but it made me do that.
[00:44:13] Jeffrey: It's like, okay, I'm here. I can only be in this 100 to 400 length. it, I, I I think it helped start to see those scenes a little, a little smaller or at least see things a little differently when, when you did that. That's something I I've done in the past to try to consciously make myself see that is to limit the
[00:44:30] Jeffrey: gear
[00:44:30] Jeffrey: had So I had to look at things in a different way than I, instead of seeing it 24-120 length, like I was used to, I had to see it in a 100 to 400 length to get some ideas and figure out how to work with it.
[00:44:42] Michael: Right, and, and we just, I don't know if you're involved in it, but there is a, a conversation on the discord, again, about artificial limitations or artificial restrictions, placing those on yourself for the sake of developing or honing the skill. If, if you give yourself the option to fall back on what's comfortable, then there's a greater chance you're gonna fall back on what's comfortable.
[00:45:06] Michael: Whereas, to your point, if all you took is the 100-400 if you want to get any photos now you gotta learn how to shoot and see what that 100, 400, I think, you know, in that vein too, again, thinking through my own progression starting out, like what did I start with? I basically started with a 24 to 70.
[00:45:24] Michael: And then I started using the 70 to 200 a little bit more. And I didn't go out and buy the 100 to 400 right off the bat. I didn't get that until five years in. And it was when I was at a point with the 70 to 200 that I was finding myself constantly wishing I had that added reach. 'cause I was starting to see beyond the 200, but I couldn't reach beyond the 200.
[00:45:44] Michael: So I went out and got the 100 to 400 right before my trip to Yosemite in February of 2020. it was just like this, you know, angels singing moment when I'm in the park. And, and that was a trip where it was pretty much just blue skies. So it's not to say I didn't shoot with the 24 to, uh, 70 that I was carrying at the time, my 100-400 did a lot of the heavy lifting and definitely some of my favorite photos from that trip, came with that, that lens.
[00:46:11] Michael: So it wasn't, I, I think it'd be difficult. I'd be curious if, if. of our listeners can chime in. If anybody really ever goes out and buys their first camera with a 100 to 400 or now Canon's 100 500, I would be skeptical.
[00:46:27] Jeffrey: Y Yeah, I, I, yeah, I would highly doubt that. I know that just didn't seem like when I hear landscape, at least back then, when I heard landscape photography, if anything, my head was at 24-70 uh, or something wider. That's
[00:46:40] Michael: Right,
[00:46:41] Jeffrey: was at. It took a while to be like, oh, there is a real use application to, for me, 70 to 200 was events and portraits. Right.
[00:46:49] Jeffrey: uh, but yeah, that's a great question. I would be curious, uh, if folks wanted to, what lenses did you start with and was it like a 100 to 400 or 100 to 500 right outta the gate?
[00:46:58] Michael: Yeah. And, and actually thinking back on it now, my first two lenses, I bought the Canon T five i with the kit 18 to 55 mil. So it's a crop sensor that's about 24 to 70. I actually, maybe I just blew my own argument up.
[00:47:12] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:13] Michael: also bought the 75 to 300, although I bought it more with the mindset of like, birds, not landscape.
[00:47:20] Michael: I guess part of it was that 75 to 300 kit from Canon was so bad it didn't have image stabilization. It was just, God, it was awful lens. I, they,
[00:47:31] Jeffrey: Right.
[00:47:32] Michael: man, probably the worst lens I've ever used. So in terms of what I was using, it was that 18 to 55 ak 24 to 70. And then the very first lens I bought after that was, uh, Tokina 11 to 20 mil, I think.
[00:47:45] Jeffrey: Yep. It's
[00:47:46] Michael: So I went right, I went wider. Um, and I got that partly for, the astrophotography that I got into around 20 16, 20 17. I wasn't seeing in that. arrange yet only times I can recall really using the 75 to 300, even when I started out, was again, like, Ooh, there's a bird on a branch somewhere, or I'm gonna sit out back and photograph the birds on the bird feeder.
[00:48:12] Michael: You know, what have you. So, uh, and then I went, you know, from there, I, I had the 11 to 20, then I went way in, I got the sig or the, uh, Tamara one 50 to 600. that was primarily about the wildlife photography, which I soon found that I'm apparently a natural wildlife deterrent. So I gave that up pretty quickly and I used that for some landscape stuff.
[00:48:36] Michael: But I mean, that thing was like carrying a bazooka around. So I didn't carry it a whole lot. But, um, yeah, so I, I guess I'm, I'm, I'm a good counter argument. Like, well, nobody's buying a long lens right off the bat, but I did, and I didn't use it a 'cause the lens sucked and B, 'cause I just. I didn't know how to use it fully.
[00:48:55] Michael: I guess. Like even if it had been a good lens, I wouldn't have been using it the way I used my 100 to 500 today, I don't think. But anyways, I'd be curious if our listeners want to chime in on the, uh, the Patreon chat.
[00:49:06] Jeffrey: Yep,
[00:49:06] Michael: did you go out and buy a 100 to 400 right away? If, if so, like how was that experience?
[00:49:11] Michael: Was it you easy to jump into it or did you struggle to see that way and find things to photograph? Did you shift back and get a wider lens? I'd be, I'd be curious to see if kind of what the, what the majority out there. I would suspect still that most people start off with the kind of that 24 to 70 quote unquote traditional range
[00:49:31] Jeffrey: yep. Yeah, I'd be curious to see. I'd like to hear from, I'd like to hear some folks, I would like to hear from some folks on that.
[00:49:38] Michael: only took you three tries to say it.
[00:49:40] Jeffrey: I know.
[00:49:41] Michael: We'll edit those other ones out.
[00:49:42] Jeffrey: should be, uh, I should be warmed up.
[00:49:44] Michael: The last piece I'll throw out there is do you feel, well, I guess this is kind of a two-pronged topic question. Do you feel that smaller scenes help you tell more of a story and or does it allow you to insert more of yourself into a photo?
[00:50:05] Jeffrey: For the tell the story part. I think the potential is there, but I'm probably, me myself, I'm not executing well on telling a story with it just 'cause in my head to tell the story with it. I need a little bit of that environmental scene and then piece together some interesting piece. So I end up with like a five, six set of something. So I think the potential's there. I'm not great at executing on that. Piece of it. As far as inserting more of myself into the scene, I, I think there is more potential there because with the grand landscapes, like you said, so often it's an iconic scene that it's dialed in. It's like, okay, to get this picture, I go here, I stand here.
[00:50:45] Jeffrey: And I even say that as someone goes out and likes to try to think different and I encourage thinking different, but a reason that the pictures end up with your tripod set up here with this and this part of the frame and this, so
[00:50:57] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:57] Jeffrey: there, I feel like you still get some great images, but there's more of a formula to what you're supposed to do.
[00:51:03] Jeffrey: Whereas the small scenes are, my opinion so much more your interpretation of, you know, the colors, the textures, the, the lines that I think there's more opportunity to come away with. Images where you've inserted your perspective, your view on it, and it's much less likely someone's gonna come along and do exactly what
[00:51:24] Michael: Right.
[00:51:25] Jeffrey: uh, that, that's, that's, that's how I think. What about you? What, what's your thoughts on that?
[00:51:28] Michael: No, I, I feel very much the same in terms of the small scenes and injecting of myself into it. Like you said, if I'm taking a photo that anybody can roll up next to me and basically take the same photo, then not really putting a piece of myself into it. It's not telling a story of the place or a story of Michael.
[00:51:51] Michael: you know, I feel like the whole story piece is a bit of a. I'm gonna say trope,
[00:51:58] Jeffrey: Hmm.
[00:51:59] Michael: like I, I, I kind of hate the whole like, oh, well what's the story of your photo? If it doesn't have a story, it's not, you know, it's not a good photo. Like,
[00:52:08] Michael: bullsh*t I'll bleep that out if I need to
[00:52:13] Jeffrey: can, uh, you can Patreon community, you
[00:52:15] Michael: share your thoughts.
[00:52:17] Jeffrey: That's potentially a whole episode in and of
[00:52:19] Michael: It is, yeah. I know, and I think this, this conversation is kind of coming to a wind down state, but, you know, I, I, to me, a smaller scene is easier though. If I want to tell a story. I feel like I, I'm more inclined to be able to do so through a smaller scene, but what I will say is very rarely does the story form for me in the act of making the photo.
[00:52:42] Michael: It's when I'm back at the computer and oftentimes it's not even until I'm done with the edit and now I've gotta title the stupid thing and I'm really mulling over like, ah, what is this scene? Represent or make me think of, you know, how in the world can I come up with title number 500 or, you know, whatever.
[00:53:00] Michael: That's a lot of times where my stories for a photo come from. It's, it's not a in the moment, uh, realization. It's upon further reflection, oh, well this can tell the story of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:53:12] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:53:12] Michael: know, an example of that would be my photo, uh, letting go that I took at my local park, uh, almost three years ago.
[00:53:19] Michael: Beautiful photo fall colors. There's a tree, uh, with brilliant golds and there's like a dead branch or tree arching over off to the, off to the left. I, at the time I took the photo, like, to me it was just, it, it was a pretty scene. Like it caught my eye. I framed it up. I wanna photograph that. I think it's a great, great subject.
[00:53:40] Michael: So I did, I didn't have any story in mind though, but as I was working on it, and then again, when it came time to title it, I came with the title Letting Go. 'cause it was actually, it was just. Uh, let's see that, um, at that time when I was working on editing and, and titling, it was when Lucy, our dog was going through kind of that decline period.
[00:54:02] Michael: So, you know, and letting go is, was very much on my mind as, you know, we knew we were approaching at some point, having to let her go. And then thinking beyond that too, you know, I lost my father eight years before that. And, you know, thinking about my mom, who I've subsequently lost, but at the time, knowing that that active letting go was going to be a persistent theme.
[00:54:26] Michael: You know, we, we have other pets that are older and, you know, there's just, and you know, it kind of has been this like every six months it's like, letting go, letting go, letting go. And, and that's, that all came to mind as I was trying to tell the story of the photo, but not through anything I experienced or felt in the field.
[00:54:43] Michael: it was all in that, that reflecting upon it after the fact standpoint. So. I don't, think it's easier to tell a story with a smaller scene, it's when you're standing there making the photo or like my case when you're, when you're titling it or editing it than a broader vista scene. Like what?
[00:55:04] Michael: What story am I telling if I'm standing at an overlook of Bryce Canyon? And it's a broad view, looking out over the hoodoo. It's an amazing scene. It's an amazing view,
[00:55:13] Jeffrey: right,
[00:55:14] Michael: but when I'm titling it, I. I can't really put much of a story to it unless I had something going through my mind at the time or whatever.
[00:55:22] Michael: So anyways, long went away and I know I went on a little bit of a tangent in terms of that whole, that story piece, but I've seen that argument. They're like, oh, every good photo's gotta have a story. And I, I really don't buy into that. Sometimes a pretty photo is a pretty photo is a pretty photo and there ain't nothing wrong with that.
[00:55:38] Michael: So maybe that's a good, good part or a good point to, uh, to wind this down before I get too much further up on my soapbox about something. We already had my angry episode last week with ai, so
[00:55:49] Jeffrey: yes,
[00:55:50] Michael: avoid that. But I do have one thing I want to talk to that I meant to, uh, shout out in the intro that I forgot.
[00:55:55] Michael: Uh, last week, I think it was, I finally got my copy of Oliver's book
[00:56:01] Jeffrey: Oh, cool.
[00:56:02] Michael: back there, forgotten Souls. Gimme a moment, I'll grab it.
[00:56:05] Michael: Wonderful UK photographer near and dear to my heart because he pretty much just photographs trees. beautiful book if anybody's looking for a, uh, fantastic photography book with some phenomenal photography. yeah, I've only chatted with Matt through Instagram, but seems like a really, really good guy.
[00:56:23] Michael: definitely happy to support his work and reasonably priced book too. So definitely recommend Forgotten Souls by Matt Oliver. shout out to Matt on that. And um, also Jeffrey, I realized that in the introduction I talked and talked and talked about me, me, me and what I've been up to. But been up to anything besides working on your side of the podcast?
[00:56:43] Jeffrey: it, my side of the podcast, I did a YouTube video. You know, I, I, got that put out about a, a camera bag. So I did that recorded and edited and then, uh, podcast stuff. So, uh, yeah, not, not a super busy week, so I wasn't gonna jump in 'cause it's really, it was just a lot of the normal
[00:56:59] Michael: Right.
[00:57:00] Jeffrey: of a landscape photographer that produces content.
[00:57:03] Michael: Yeah. And that might be the same thing for us next week, depending on how this, uh, final 10 days leading up to the podcast goes. But I think we're,
[00:57:09] Jeffrey: sure
[00:57:10] Michael: like we're in a good place. And again, I know it's weird for anybody listening to this 'cause you're like, but this is episode five, but in our lives right now,
[00:57:16] Jeffrey: podcast,
[00:57:17] Michael: um, we're 10 days away from episode one even being going out.
[00:57:20] Michael: So, uh, yeah. It's, it's a crazy timeline disparity here. But, but yeah, I think we're in a, I think we're in a good spot. We're up on Podbean. Hopefully that'll flow through and, and we'll get set up with Apple and Spotify and all that and everything will just flow through from there. uh, yeah, hopefully this goes live and, and people like it.
[00:57:37] Michael: So, um, to think if there's anything else to talk about. I might just cut out this end part and say, with all of that out of the way. Until next time, take care everybody.
[00:57:48] Jeffrey: bye everybody.
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Michael Rung
Michael is a nature and landscape photographer based in Texas, with a deep appreciation for quiet forests and the unique character of trees. His photography often explores the subtle beauty in overlooked scenes, capturing atmosphere and emotion through careful composition and light. Michael brings thoughtful insight, honest reflections, and a grounded perspective to every episode of Shutter Nonsense.
Jeffrey Tadlock
Jeffrey is a landscape photographer from Ohio who finds inspiration in waterfalls, scenic overlooks, and the ever-changing light of the natural world. He enjoys sharing stories from the field and helping others improve their skills through practical, experience-based tips. With a passion for teaching and a love of the outdoors, Jeffrey brings clarity and encouragement to fellow photographers at all levels.
